Avoiding Overwhelm and Burnout in Your Creative Business by Staying True to Your Calling with Lindsey Epperly

[00:00:00] Made Remarkable Intro: Welcome back. And thanks for tuning into the made remarkable podcast, hosted by Kelly Winn. Today's guest is Lindsey. Epperly a passionate and creative entrepreneur. 

CEO of Jet Set World Travel. And host of who made you the boss podcast? Lindsey shares the rollercoaster journey of entrepreneurship and the challenges of growing a business in the luxury travel industry. She also shares her experience of transitioning from a frontline travel advisor to becoming an entrepreneur and CEO. Expressing the fear and intimidation that comes with such a journey. She delves into the common experience of imposter syndrome. The mindset shift required for growth. And the importance of surrounding oneself with mentors and coaches. Check out the show notes and transcripts for more information about Lindsey exclusive promotional offers and any special links mentioned during the episode. Kelly loves connecting with listeners. 

So don't be shy. Reach out on social media and together let's build a community that celebrates the remarkable. If you want to be notified every time a new episode hits the airwaves, just hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for joining us today and always remember. You are made remarkable destined to achieve the unimaginable. Now let's get to the good part. Introducing Kelly Winn and Lindsey Epperly.

[00:01:19] Kellee Wynne: Well, hello. Hello. I'm Kelly Wynn, artist, author, mentor, fiercely independent mother and wife, and the founder of a multiple six figure creative business. And I love my life, but I've been where you're at. I was slogging away at this art business thing for more than a decade. Once I finally connected with my true calling, unlock the magic of marketing and built a system that could scale, while I realize I can make an impact and make a substantial income, I'm finally running a business that I love and it makes all the.

Difference in the world. My biggest dream is to help you do the same. Let this podcast be the catalyst to your biggest success. You already have it in you because you are made remarkable. 

Well, hello, I am inviting a new friend to me onto the podcast, Lindsey Epperly, who has a lot of experience on building quite a creative business with luxury travel, correct? Correct. But we want to get into the heart of entrepreneurship and the challenges that we face growing a business. So welcome to the podcast, Lindsey.

[00:02:29] Lindsey Epperly: Thanks for having me, Kellee. 

[00:02:31] Kellee Wynne: So why don't you just start by a good introduction, what you do, and also just like paint a picture of that world of travel, especially through some of the hardest seasons travel has seen in a long time. 

[00:02:46] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking. So I'm Lindsey. I am CEO of Jet Set World Travel, which is a company that I founded 10 years ago, formerly known as Epperly Travel.

We had an acquisition. We can get into all of that fun stuff. But I used to sit as a frontline travel advisor, which is now who I mentor and what I've helped build and scale within Jet Set. And it was so interesting in being introduced to you and, and the work you're putting into the world for creatives because I've always identified more as a creative myself than even as a business person or an entrepreneur.

So to think about the work that travel advisors are doing, the old school idea is that it's just very transactional, right? You're like taking your idea to someone at a desk, they're typing in a few numbers and here you have a ticket on Delta. And it's really become such a right brained relationship driven activity where.

Our advisors are getting to know their clients and saying, all right, let's take that dream in the back of your head and turn it into a reality. And we have such pride in our work because we're building itineraries and we're, we're creating relationships from not just us and our client, but who they're going to meet when they go on this vacation to Italy and they're meeting with our favorite guide.

And how do we make sure it's going to fulfill their expectations? So it's a very creative endeavor. And I'm thrilled to talk about the intersection of that creativity and entrepreneurship with you. 

[00:04:02] Kellee Wynne: Right. Especially because before we actually hit record, you were talking about like when you started, it was a very creative process for you writing, probably blogging, reaching out a lot of this kind of creativity and you're full circle now because you went through the weeds of building the business and the systems, which is what we're going to talk about, like really what it takes to build your own business, but now you're on the other end of it and you're writing again.

Yeah. And you're podcasting again and you got all that creative juice back into your life. 

[00:04:34] Lindsey Epperly: Yes. You know, I feel I was just telling you this. I feel like I have that entrepreneurial hustle and that creative energy coming back to me for the first time in 10 years and not to say that the past 10 years I haven't been fulfilled.

I've gotten. Really a lot out of building and scaling this business, but there's something about that initial phase where you have this like tiny, fragile vision and you're starting to put it out into the world and it's such an active vulnerability to create and to have others then embrace it or give you feedback on it.

And what does that look like? You know, there's a reason that founder syndrome exists. It's because like the business is the creative endeavor. That is our baby that we're putting into the world. 

[00:05:13] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Founder's syndrome. This is the, you don't know what you don't know until you're in it. Which is something that I've gone through myself as well.

And there are ways we, I would love to, I'm really excited to talk about some of the things we can do to, Hustle in a good way, not in a bad way. Did you use the word hustle? And I was like, Oh, that's true. The hustle energy is like, that's the fun part, but it's not the hustle till you die and burn out kind of part.

Like you're just in the throes of it and it's fun and it's creative. Building a business is as to me as, as creative as making art. Like there's so many paths we can take and it can be so joyful in some moments until we are in over our heads practically. And that's what a lot of artists just. Or creative entrepreneurs, really, because I talked to all creative entrepreneurs, they burn out and they decide it's not for them, but that's because they're missing some important pieces.

And that's what we want to talk about. Like, how do we avoid the burnout? How do we avoid having to turn our business into a complete hustle? How do we stop our business from taking over and then never doing the creative thing we loved in the 1st place, which is like what you're talking about going from being creative to being in the middle.

[00:06:27] Lindsey Epperly: I feel like it's such an interesting point that you just made to call out the word hustle because it does have both sides to it, right? Like I'm in a season of hustling that I actually really appreciate and enjoy because I like pounding the pavement. I like connecting with the end user or the end listener and finding out what do they need.

But there. It is a moment in time and I have completely been there and this is absolutely what led to, to burnout where I got that confused and I was hustling for my self worth and the success of my career and my business and my creative endeavors were all tied to my identity and that is what we want to make sure others avoid because that's a really toxic place to be in.

[00:07:07] Kellee Wynne: Okay, I resonate with that. Like, I'm going back to, in full disclosure, 2020, while it was really rough for you, was a boom for me, but I burnt out so bad that I don't know that I ever gave myself a break. Space to fully recover from it. Interesting. Right? So, and it's that hustle.

It's the needing to do all the things. It's not having the right help in place. It's not having the right systems in place. It's not having clarity. 

Yeah. When you don't know what you're working on, you work on everything and then you're just exhausted. 

[00:07:40] Lindsey Epperly: Completely. And, something that I've been kind of hyper obsessed with lately is this idea of, is burnout actually a sign or is it a symptom?

So is it because we're overworked and we're feeling it, it's a, it's an ancillary symptom of what we've been doing? Or is it actually our body's way of saying, Hey, Kellee, wake up. There's something going on here that you've got to stop. And I found like anytime that it's that no amount of self care is helping to your point.

Like if you don't carve out, you're not, even if you carve out the time, it's not helping because you're burned out. And that has always been my body's way of saying it's time to evolve. It's now time to go from what you've been doing to what your next, what your calling is essentially. And like, that's how I've just kind of managed to up level each time throughout my career is listening to that burnout.

[00:08:26] Kellee Wynne: Perfect, perfect analogy. And I really absolutely 100 percent agree because that was part of my problem in 2020 as the world was all online. So it was great for me already having established an art business online, teaching art online that I was doing all these things, but I knew deep down even the year before that there was something else I wanted to do.

That I had started this part of the business and it was going well. So I felt like I needed to stay with it. In fact, I stayed with it a lot longer than I probably should have. I had a membership. I ended up shutting it down, but I remember deep down inside thinking it's because it's the next step is what I need to do.

Yes. And I wasn't listening to that. So it was twofold overworking, but I was overworking because I didn't know what my end goal was. 

[00:09:18] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah, that resonates. I'll be honest as difficult as 2020 was and please know it was on so many levels. Obviously everyone had their experience with that time and it was not easy for anyone.

The travel industry was hit very hard. I myself was five months pregnant and my husband is my business partner. We haven't talked about that yet. So we had all eggs in one basket, had to make the painful decision to walk away from our home in order to keep our business. It was. It was very traumatic.

With that being said. It freed me up to start pursuing exactly what you just described. Some of those creative pursuits that had always kind of been nestled inside of me that I felt like we're about to claw themselves out, right? If I didn't give them the space to come out and play and breathe a little bit, they would destroy me.

And now I'm able to step into those in a way that benefits both my life purpose. And the business. And so it's, it's created a much healthier relationship where yes, I'm putting this new work into the world with who may do the boss with the podcast, with my writing, but it's also amplifying what we've created at Jet Set.

And so everyone wins because you're listening to that calling. And I'm sure you've seen that too in the past three years from what you've created. 

[00:10:30] Kellee Wynne: When I listen to what I'm meant to do, there's a lot of possibilities, honestly. And I, I hear from so many of the like business gurus, which I put in quotes there for anyone not watching the video.

They're like, it doesn't matter if you have passion or not. Just pick a a, a business that's viable. And I'm like, yeah, that sounds much like just having a boring corporate job. I'm like, no thanks. I'm like, great. What are you in it for? Everyone's different, but my. Listeners, my audience, my community, they are creative souls and they need to do something that's fulfilling.

Yeah, right. So why do we do this all? And when we lose sight of that in pursuit of like going down the wrong path, and I see it. That's when burnout happens or that's when dissatisfaction or frustration and quitting. Really? 

[00:11:20] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah. Well, and maybe that works for some people whose only goal is, I just want to build something and profit, right?

Like if the goal is finances and to be emotionally unattached, which some days does sound a little nice, then maybe that is the route. But for those of us who, to your point, identify more as creatives, there's something so meaningful about putting our work into the world. And then what I've come to find in teaching others how to put that same work into the world.

And so. I quickly after becoming a travel advisor would look around and realize, Oh, there's a lot of individuals that want to get into this career path, but there's no clear cut way. Why don't I create something that helps others learn how to do what I've been doing? And there was so much meaning in that teaching because you're still teaching your endeavor, right?

You're still teaching what you're passionate about, 

[00:12:06] Kellee Wynne: right? That's why I love doing it. And I actually feel sometimes like art has been. A means to an end for me to be able to connect with other artists and build a business. So I love making art. I love the business side of it is so creative and so fulfilling.

 But that's for me, how do we, I don't know if I don't want to say warn, but how do we warn other creative people who are about to turn their passion into a business, a full fledged business? What is it really going to take? And this is the part that I don't think anyone realizes behind the scenes that even now that I still work as many hours as I ever did.

But I find it far more fulfilling because I'm in the role that I'm meant to be. How do we get to that point of knowing and understanding what it's going to take? I mean, when you say who made you the boss anyway, what does it take to be the boss? Which I love the word boss, by the way, I have a bunch of shirts that are like boss, not bossy.

So I made it for myself because I really do identify with this role of running my own business. 

[00:13:14] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah, I find that the word it's so funny people have such a visceral reaction to it right of either love or hate and I and that's why I chose that title for the podcast to read you the boss because I know it would land, but also because the number of times I've had to look myself in the mirror and be like, Oh my God, I like if they if people knew Yeah.

Right. If they knew how my shirt was on backwards, even right now, would they be listening to me as the boss of this? Like who did this? I did. Oh, I did. I made myself the boss. And all you have to do to come to terms with that imposter syndrome, but you know, to your question, how do they know how they think so much of this?

Of course, Kellee is just trial and error yourself, right? Like you can listen to as many podcasts and read as many self help books as possible, but until you start experiencing it, yourself, you can't avoid every pitfall. But I do think, especially as creatives, there are things that we can do to protect our hearts and our spirits as we're putting ourselves into the world and our creations into the world and holding the tension of, I'd also like to grow this as a business, like you don't need to apologize for making money.

That is something you need to live. So how do we hold that tension of let's still be creative, but let's, work around the frameworks of a business to be able to actually build and scale this, which is a constant learning experience that I've had. 

[00:14:27] Kellee Wynne: It's a whole new world. It's a lot more than just posting something on Instagram and saying, Hey, I have art for sale or come and take my course.

There's so many more layers to it. Where are the pitfalls then? Of, you know, it's that saying of what got you here won't get you there. Let's go into some of your philosophy, Lindsey, and what you've been through as you've built your business and then where you see, some of these points of view that, that would really make a difference for those who are, all of you who have already taken the plunge.

Probably like many others around 2020, 2021, you're like, this is the way where everyone's online making a course, making a workshop, making a summit, making a coaching program, whatever. Like now you're in it. Now, what is it that they're missing? The point of view that they're missing. 

[00:15:16] Lindsey Epperly: You know, there are a couple different ways we could take this conversation.

And I hope we hit on all the touch points of building a network when you don't have one and, and what it means to actually like scale the business in a way that a creative will appreciate and understand. So maybe let's start there in, in terms of my philosophies, right? I did not know to be prepared that in order to scale the business, you would have to create systems and processes.

And obviously that sounds obvious, but. For a creative, you don't realize how much that's going to probably suck your soul dry. And I did not know that going into it. And so I would still be trying to exist in my like fun, creative world. I want to create, I wanted to, I want to either build more travel or I want to build this business, but then I would be very bogged down by all of the.

The back office, the administrative, the things you don't think about, like in the travel industry. I remember when I first owned an agency, I had to go get like fingerprinted to sell travel insurance. I'm like, no one told me I'd have to do this stuff. That's taking me away from the things I love just silly little things, you know, but you need all of that to run the company.

And for many of us, we only think in terms of, well, this is mine and I'm going to build it. And so I need to be wearing all the hats and we all have to do that whenever we're entrepreneurs. For me, I had a whole journey in learning to accept partnership, which came by way of my fiance at the time, now my husband.

So I don't know that I would always give that advice to marry your business partner, but it worked out for me. But this is an individual who thinks very left brained. He is meant to be in that COO style role. Like he really is able to look at systems and processes and implement them in a way that doesn't make him want to cry.

Whereas it makes me want to cry. And. So to accept the partnership, cause I really fought it for a while. I was like, I know, thank you. I am an only child. This is my baby. I don't need a partner. Uh, independent as they come, but learning to accept it has been the most freeing gift for me as a creative because now I have someone who's wearing that.

Left brain hat, an individual that is really concerned and cares about the business, but thinks of it in that way so that I could be freed up to do more of those creative endeavors to help scale the company from my zone of genius, essentially. So that has been huge. 

[00:17:25] Kellee Wynne: That's been the lifesaver for me. And one of the reasons why I've worked out is because I didn't find the right people to help me.

And when you're in that mode of, I can do it all, like I'll figure it all out myself. And some people don't even realize that that's an option. Hire a virtual assistant, hire the person who's good with the admin tasks. Have you heard of the book traction and then, the follow on one rocket fuel by Gina Wickman?

Rocket fuel addresses that idea of the visionary and the integrator and creatives are the visionaries. The person who's dreamed up that business, they're the visionary. They have the ideas. We could go here, we can do this. Let's connect with this person. Let's build this kind of relationship. Let's, show up like, let's do some podcast series.

Let's write a book about it. All the newest, latest. Funnest, most interesting ways to build the business, whereas you need those systems and processes, which I'm okay at. But that's where the integrator comes in and even a virtual assistant that's really good at like, let's just make sure the inbox is set up.

Right. Let's make sure that when this happens, this happens and this is set up. Right. And the, and like, I hired an account. That was 1 things I did was like, okay, I'm an LLC. I hired an accountant. The taxes are taken care of. I don't have to worry about, like, the bookkeeping numbers, like hiring out the people who are better than that actually saves me money and I can grow the business bigger and lightly.

Who would have ever thought, but when I found that person, I held on to her so tight. I'm like, I'm giving you a raise because I don't want you working for anyone else. Stay with me, please. 

[00:19:05] Lindsey Epperly: You're so spot on. And you know what? I jumped right to the idea of accepting partnership, but you're completely right.

There was a number of years where I was hiring out for my weaknesses. And a lot of times that starts as an assistant. To the point, this is so funny. A friend of mine asked me, she's like very early in the entrepreneurial journey. And she asked me the other day, so how much accounting knowledge did you have to gain before you started your business?

And how much math acumen did you know? And I was like, Oh, I failed economics. I literally failed the only business class I've ever taken. Like you can still do this without having to know everything A to Z. If you hire for your weaknesses and, and, and it's not just looking at as a weakness. It's now you have someone who that is their superpower and they're able to come to the table with the accounting knowledge that I never have possessed.

I'm still trying to learn, but I mean, so those early on stages, even if you're not ready to hire a partner, like that's a big, big step. If it's just, I have enough money to hire someone part time do it because you've got to be able to get yourself out of the weeds in order to keep creating, which is what you're best at.

[00:20:07] Kellee Wynne: Right, exactly. As you say, stay in your zone of genius and let those other areas that might, you might be okay at, or like, for example, I'm really good at Canva. I can design all day long, but that means that for all the time I spend in Canva doing that, I'm not communicating with the people that I need to communicate.

I'm not reaching out and having more with amazing guests like you on my podcast. I'm not spending the time like in the outreach and the connection and the communication or the making art part that only I can, right? So one thing that is really important too, as far as taking the next step so you can stay in your place.

One mistake I made was hiring a bunch of my art friends who were also creative visionaries, which was fun, But then it ended up being kind of a disaster because we weren't getting anything done. And so the fact that the person I have now, like that's been her, her work, her almost her whole life has been some form of admin and this is her expertise.

She is definitely one that can see the pieces and help me put them together. So I don't feel the kind of burnout I felt before, because I know I have the systems in place and the people to support me. And I'm doing what I love to do, 

[00:21:26] Lindsey Epperly: You know I think people are very hesitant about it oftentimes because the idea of you have to spend money to make money, right?

Like the idea of taking that first step and making that first hire is really scary. And something that's also really difficult is, oftentimes by the time someone is reading something like traction, which side note, that book is phenomenal. And the best part about having a partner in the business is that I can read that and be like, Bye.

Great. Now I have an integrator. I can give this book to so he can implement most of what's in here because that is not my zone of genius. Exactly. Before all of that, this idea that you're almost like already too bogged down, right? When you start looking at those books, it's because you're like, I need a life raft of some sort to get myself out of.

Having to do everything. And I feel like carving time to work on your business instead of in your business. That that's been a huge lifesaver for me. I will usually do an hour a week at a coffee shop, at least where I'm working on the business. I, at this point do it more. But even if you just only have the next five minutes, right.

To like, Press pause, write down the 10 tasks that you do every single day. And beside them, write if you are actually the one necessary to do that, or if someone else could do it, you know, like start paying attention to where are you the absolute best and what could you delegate? And then you can start figuring out, well, who do I hire based off of these tasks that I either absolutely hate or am absolutely not necessary for.

[00:22:47] Kellee Wynne: Right. Then how do we stay in our zone of genius and keep moving forward with our business? Without still, I think I still struggle a bit with like, I spend too much time on it, although I'm doing exactly what you do. And I go to the coffee shop now at least once a week so that I'm out of the house and I'm like fully focused on the business, not in the businesses.

So for anyone who doesn't know the difference on the business is the big dreaming picture. it's the, where do we go next? How do I put these pieces in place for the, the, the launch or the course or the whatever The bigger picture, not in, like, I need to get this PDF done and these slides done or whatever, 

[00:23:28] Lindsey Epperly: So I love that you just explained that too. Cause I'm thinking since most everyone listening identifies as a creative, the on stuff is really fun. You should be jazzed about going to a coffee shop and getting to dream and cast a vision. This is what we do best, but I also think there is an element, you know, I went from being a frontline travel advisor, not running a business.

All to scaling that out in a way to where I'm now an entrepreneur. And now I'm the CEO. And like, now, you know, you're taking all these steps and with each step, it's really scary and intimidating. And I think we oftentimes get in our heads, especially as creatives where we might think like, no, no, no. My lane is the creation.

My lane is the one thing that I'm putting into the world. It's not to lead. It's not to run. And that can start. We can really start dealing with a lot of gremlins that come into play that usually take the form of imposter syndrome, right? The whole idea of who made you the boss. Who am I to work on this business?

I didn't even know it was a business, you know, like there's this level of like, yeah. So just know that that's normal. That's going to happen. I feel like if you're doing it right, you're going to encounter some level of imposter syndrome. And. Yeah. Absolutely. And the point of that is to learn from it and not succumb to it and know that everyone deals with it.

Every single day I, hopefully things are going right, wake up and run a company that's a little bit larger than it was the day before. And I don't know what I'm doing with that because it's larger than it was the day before. I've never ran one this size as it was yesterday. It looks different every day and you have to kind of keep evolving with it.

[00:24:54] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, absolutely. The role that I play now and the way I have to even think about who I am, that's changed a whole lot since I started. It's like one of my clients in the Remarkable League, it's my high end coaching program. I said, you're on your way to being a millionaire.

This is a million dollar business you start. He goes, I didn't even know that I could make a six figure business. And now what? He goes, I don't know how to do that. I'm like one step at a time. Nobody really knows until they're in it. But for a lot of people, they'll start off saying, Oh, I'd just be happy to make a little bit of money off of that until they realize that they actually have the power to continue moving forward every day.

But it is that mindset that you have to get out of your own way. The imposter syndrome. How do we overcome that? Why do we stop ourselves from growth when honestly we need to be making an income to support ourselves? Otherwise we have a very, as I said, a million times, you have a very expensive hobby if you have a business that's not profitable, 

[00:25:57] Lindsey Epperly: I love. All the you just shared because it gave such a really beautiful example of what you do for a living and how you pour into other people and why it is really important to hire coaches and to surround ourselves with other individuals who can see our potential before we can even see our potential. And I would say when I think back to my like deepest seasons of imposter syndrome, couple of things.

One, I almost always had a mentor of some way, shape or form at that time who believed in me, even when I didn't believe in myself and I could kind of borrow their confidence and borrow their belief and apply it to myself. That was huge. And then the other thing is I just started realizing, maybe it's like slightly an egotistical viewpoint that I think everyone is watching me.

I actually just put out a podcast on this because I, I had this experience where I went to an entrepreneurial retreat on a private island. Okay. This was like my dream come true, but it wound up happening as the business was failing in the middle of COVID. So it was this whole like crazy, I'm in the place I thought I would be, but I'm not in the place I thought I would be.

[00:26:53] Kellee Wynne: This wasn't a Necker Island, was it?

[00:26:56] Lindsey Epperly: I mean, it was something. Okay. So I don't want to go into the details of it, but yeah, it was, it was, yes, it was Necker. So, but it was so cool. Right. And I work in the travel industry. So I've long since had a hotel crash on this property. And I love everything about it.

What I am focused on though, is the fact that my business is failing massively during this time, right? We're in the midst of the world is just slowly reopening after the pandemic, but the travel industry is well behind. Right. And I'm here with these incredible people who literally hang out in like Tony Robbins inner circle.

And I'm like, do you think that they can tell I'm a failure? Should I just like write it on my forehead or my name tag? And so I just started realizing though, it took me a long time to process that. Like, why was I such a shell of myself during that time? And that imposter syndrome was so rampant.

And I started realizing like, no one cares. Like no one is sitting there wondering , what did you do to deserve to be here? You're the one who's imposing those on yourself. 

[00:27:51] Kellee Wynne: Exactly. When I had someone reach out and they're like, well, I'm so surprised you're even answering me someone of your caliber.

I'm like, look, I am just like you. I am just a person. So we do put ourselves in these categories, and that's why I really have a point of view with Made Remarkable is that we are all Made Remarkable. And I don't really believe any one of us is better than the other.

But our ambition is what's going to get us in those doors, not necessarily our accomplishment, but it's, you do have to get over a mindset of imposter syndrome where it's always going to be there, but you just have to keep one step forward. So how did you finally break through that of you have value and you deserve to be there too?

I mean, I love the fact that you just said they're not really paying attention. 

[00:28:42] Lindsey Epperly: So the crazy thing about that is I wish that I could say I completed the full circle of imposter syndrome and showed up the next day at the retreat and was finally myself. Legitimately, it took me about a year to process all of this because we were just in such the depths.

But sometimes I think that's important to know is that. It's not a matter of just having one morning meditation, a nice cup of coffee and walking away, no longer an imposter. Like you're, if you deal with this, it is an ongoing battle. And to understand that, yes, you have to do that level of self care, but keep surrounding yourself with others who believe in you, who can reinforce who you are.

And all of this traces back to, to what we talked about a few minutes ago, when it came to, I had so unhealthily tied my self worth to my success. So doing the work around that, which I recommend a lot of therapy for, it helped me realize who I am as a human and what my value is. To your point, everyone is made remarkable.

This is not about what we have achieved and what we're going to achieve. It's about as a human, I am worthy. I am worth being here. And. Also, my business is failing at the time, right? To hold both of those things in the same place. Now we're on the other side of that. I'm so happy. Of course, that we have an upward trajectory.

Again, we acquired another company. We've quadrupled, we landed on the Inc 5, 000 list. All of those things are incredible in between when I was at that retreat and now, but the work that I had to do so that I don't do it again, right? Like now that we're on the other side of success, I don't want to make that about who I am anymore.

I want to make that about. What the team and what the company is accomplishing and I and myself worth stand alone from that. So that was the work that I really had to do to come to terms with it. 

[00:30:18] Kellee Wynne: Very interesting. It's kind of like. The knowledge was all there. So even when the business was falling apart, when you finally realized, maybe you have on the other side of it, that as long as you have the knowledge and you have that experience under your belt, you can do it again.

Yeah. That's what makes you amazing. That's what's remarkable. Not the business itself. It's like, in fact, doing a podcast on this, what would I do if I was starting from scratch? It's kind of like that idea of like, Oh, if I could go back into my 21 year old body with the mind that I have now, I would be unstoppable.

Right. And it's kind of the same thing with business. The more you learn, the more you realize that, you know, I know you said you felt very uncomfortable having a business that was failing, but I imagine now three or so years later, you can look back and be like, wow, that was my biggest teacher. And that's the reason why I'm stronger than ever today.

[00:31:16] Lindsey Epperly: Yes. I refer to those moments, and this is what I spend a lot of time writing about, as the monsters that save us. Because in the midst of it, you are like totally in the belly of the whale. You think, how is this ever going to turn out even halfway decent on the other side? And actually that big, scary, growly thing that you were up against kind of delivered you to who you are supposed to be.

[00:31:38] Kellee Wynne: I mean, that definitely, I can agree with that on the trials and turbulations of owning a business because I mean, it really has been rocky because those, that first half of, well, I would say from, from 2010, 2012, all the way until I finally made money in 2018 was like, I tried everything. And there are times where you just want to quit.

You get exhausted from it. You're like, what am I doing? But it's what taught me what I know now. 

[00:32:07] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah. You know, in the midst of like this worst season, we had a mentor tell us something that we didn't want to hear at the time, but looking back on it, it makes a lot of sense. He was like, so, you know, people think that success is just like point A to point B upward trajectory, easy line.

And he was like, what they don't realize is the roller coaster ride, right? And for those of you who are listening, what I'm doing with my fingers, I'm driving it up and it's now getting stuck on a circle. Okay. So we're stuck on the circle. This is our. Obstacle that we have to overcome and he said and your reward for overcoming that obstacle is you get to go up a little bit further and then you get to encounter a bigger circle that you're going to use all that you learn from this first obstacle on and then you're going to do it and do it and I was like well I don't really want to know that this is all preparing me for future obstacles but it it is it's to what you just said there is a The reason that that course kind of keeps repeating for many of us and the things that we learned during that type of season, now you're able to go in with more confidence and say, well, the worst has happened.

Not that I want to challenge that. I don't know that I want the actual other worst to happen, but like the bad things have happened and we've made it through. So now you can go in with more confidence to move forward. 

[00:33:09] Kellee Wynne: Right. You have more tools. As far as experience goes to be able to solve the next problem.

I think it definitely takes a special kind of person to keep going on that roller coaster ride. It's not for everyone. So I'm definitely giving a little bit of cautionary love out there for some of you. And I've had family members who have started businesses and quit and said, I just want a 9 to 5. I don't want to think about it.

I want to come home. And not have to think about any of it, but for some of us, some certain personalities, I don't imagine there'll ever be a time that I retire from what I'm doing. And I fully accept now that roller coaster, because at first it was incredibly uncomfortable. It was incredibly painful.

There were so many setbacks. It was a lot of heartache and failing over and over and over again. But then you get so comfortable with failure that you see a pattern That everything works out. 

[00:34:04] Lindsey Epperly: And, you know, I think as a creative, if you are the type that wants to stomach it, if you are that individual to your point, and, and no shame if you're not, if you get into it and realize this is just not for me, that's okay.

Yeah. But I think there's a difference between realizing it's not for you and just realizing, oh, this is hard, but I, have what it takes. I want to move. You, you actually kind of like rise to the occasion, right? Like you're a little bit of a masochist when it comes to that pain. Like I've done myself.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause you kind of like those learning opportunities. 

[00:34:33] Kellee Wynne: I love them. 

[00:34:34] Lindsey Epperly: Yes. But I found as a creative. So . 10 years ago, I was a creative when I started the business and I hadn't gotten to exercise that muscle until now again, launching this podcast. I've got a book that's being pushed out to publishers right now.

So fingers crossed on that. But what I found with the book, Is had I tried to do this 10 years ago, cause I, I'm a writer by nature. That is my true, true love, but it's such a fragile and vulnerable act. Right. And so had I done this 10 years ago, before I have gone through what I've gone through in business, I think that I would just not be prepared for the rejection that you face when you're trying to publish a book.

Now on the other side of that, I've gone through this. I have a thicker skin when it comes to that level of, and I hate the term, term thick skin. We can get into that, but like, you know, I've been more accustomed to experiencing. Setback disappointment, but not disillusionment or not dejected from it. And so now I can go in and realize, okay, well, I love the creative process of writing and I know I meant to write, but I'm also going to look at this from a business perspective.

And so if I get a rejection and it's some good feedback that tells me, well, we want the market to see this. I can listen to that and say, okay, I'm not going to take that personal. It's. Yes, it is my work, it is my writing, it is my creativity, but there's also a business aspect to this too. And so it kind of helps you separate.

I think that goes back to that self worth thing, it helps you separate. 

[00:35:49] Kellee Wynne: That you are still separate from the business that you've created, the entity you've created outside of. Yeah, it's taking me a long time to learn that. But when you get to that point, then it's, not just a little easier, it's a little more joyful.

Yeah, because you don't have to take everything so personally. 

[00:36:07] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah, but that is so much easier said than done. So much easier said than done. You know, the reason that I say I, I hate the term thick skin is because for like the first 10 years in business, I had mostly male mentors and when I would go to them and about something that was just breaking my heart, right?

I was so emotional about what this client said or whatever happened or what, like, Almost unilaterally, the recommendation was, well, you just got to get thicker skin to be into business. And, and so then I would like put myself in the line of fire. I'm like, okay, well, the way to thicken skin is to cow less.

And so it's to like reenter into that arena every time. Yeah. You're getting like the heebies from this, right? Sometimes that's our. Body's way of saying, Oh, actually, you don't need to be doing that. Like you there's someone else that has the superpower that can deal with client relations. And this is your moment to evolve into what you actually are great at.

So I realized like the areas that thin skin, so they say is, is actually like our feelings and our vulnerability and where it is a superpower. But when we take things personal, that that's the flip side of that coin. 

[00:37:06] Kellee Wynne: Right. Well, so then it sounds like those are the areas to get more support. Yes. Yes. So one thing that I would be very helpful for, I know there's plenty of them, they're like on fire listening to this and saying, Oh my goodness, I really want to grow my business. I want to get there. And, and I've started something, but how do I scale? And I just want to pick out some of the few things that we've talked about that for them to really think about what is it that takes it to scale where you're making a lot more than six figures with your business.

Now, mind you, when I say that's gross annually, that's not the take home pay. People have to realize that there's so many different parts working on this, but that's when things start really up leveling, you know, looking towards the possibility of even A seven figure art business. There's no reason creative businesses, whatever it is like, travel, writing, communicating, yoga instructor, whatever it is, there's so many creative businesses, what's it going to take to scale?

[00:38:08] Lindsey Epperly: The chorus that keeps repeating. I learned that recently from a new friend, just extra. I don't know if you've heard of her. I interviewed her podcast and she's so cool. She was talking about like how her life has choruses and she realizes like every decade there's a new course. So the chorus that keeps repeating for me is control.

And when we're talking about the individuals who are asking the question of like, what is it going to take to scale? The loosening of that grip is instrumental. And sometimes it takes. I don't know, maybe you're a great listener and you can just go implement that advice immediately. I was not. For me, it took like the absolute leveling of everything to realize, Oh, now it's actually growing better than it ever has because like my death grip is gone.

So control, especially when it's our work and it's our creative process that we're putting into the world, you're really enmeshed in that oftentimes. So yeah. Cool. I. The more you can separate yourself from the product that is being put out into the world, the more you can let others help that grow.

And that's what allows you to loosen the control. So you 

[00:39:09] Kellee Wynne: say we shouldn't have to answer every email ourself. 

[00:39:13] Lindsey Epperly: You should try to not.

[00:39:15] Kellee Wynne: But seriously. Once you realize that other people are probably even, like, my team's so good at, they even understand my voice, the brand, the way to communicate.

They honestly answer things because they're not emotionally attached, right? So they're able to do the things that I wouldn't even be able to do when I had my death grip on the, on the business. 

[00:39:38] Lindsey Epperly: But when you are first starting, I'm genuinely curious on this. Did you ever imagine that that would exist? 

[00:39:44] Kellee Wynne: Not until my business hit six figures and then I was like, okay, in order to get to the next level, I really need some sort of, what you say, partnership.

For me, it's just somebody that I knew and I kept looking for that. And, and honestly, it kind of, Deteriorated friendships, because I kept hoping that I'd have someone who I could do not as a partner, like literally 50, 50 in the business, but somebody who was interested in rising up and seeing how this business could grow and taking a type of a, VP COO in a greater type spot, I had hopes of it, but I didn't know how that would feel or how to do it. So even to this day, Lisa is my, my COO and a greater manager, whatever. She's my bestie is what she is, but she'll still say, like, you know, I could do that for you. And I'm like, oh, I forgot. So, even to this day, she's like, I can put it all in place and then you can double check it.

If you want the design to look a little different. I'm like, yeah, you just go ahead and do it. Yes. Yeah, I really need to let go of these things. But the death grip is a real thing. And I, I find that that's really a problem that most of these creative entrepreneurs, And small business owners, they really think that if they're not answering the message, if they're not creating the design, if it's not coming from them, it's not their authentic business anymore.

But that's further from the truth. 

[00:41:12] Lindsey Epperly: Yes, that's why I asked you that question, because when I first started, I never imagined that individuals could take the job that I was doing. And I certainly didn't imagine that they could do it better. Right? I just had this like, egomaniacal idea that I was so special and how I did it.

And that, that could not be bottled and replicated. And good, it shouldn't necessarily be exactly you. Like, it should be everything you've poured into it, but in their way. And allowing others to rise up in their leadership abilities too has been a huge lesson that I've learned. 

[00:41:42] Kellee Wynne: Absolutely. It comes down to the two things of that burnout, that growth, the two go hand in hand, honestly, is.

I was burning out because I wasn't doing what I was meant to do. And I was also trying to do all the things myself. So once I learned how to, you know, I actually call Lisa my manager, like she literally, I say, you're the boss of me and I will actually ask, I mean, it's not literally like she's in charge of the business, but she's learned and it took some relationship growth too. She's learned. She can tell me no. She can say, no, you don't get to do that. You have too many ideas and you're trying to execute all of them. And this was not our goal of the business. And I'll just say to her, thank you so much for reminding me of that. And when you get into a place of seeing kind of this equality with somebody else that trust in somebody else, it's very rare in all honesty, but if you're building your business from a real genuine place, you should be able to find that and grow that as time goes on.

Honestly, and it really depends on your ambitions. And I hope there's enough of my audience that's highly ambitious and says, Hey, you know what? I thought that the best I could do was, you know, just. replicating my school teacher salary, which we know they don't get paid nearly enough, to well, I guess now my goal is like multiple six figures because I didn't know it was possible, but let me say it's absolutely possible, but the only way to get there is to let go of the death grip

[00:43:18] Lindsey Epperly: I hope for everyone listening too, that they get to reach that point where their business then exceeds what they dreamed it could do, because that's really special. It's also a slight identity crisis, but it's really special. 

[00:43:30] Kellee Wynne: Tell me how you dealt with that as you started from the ground up. And acquired another business that had been in business technically longer, but you could see the potential of growing it.

So you merged what you had built with what you had acquired. What was it like at that moment for you, your identity, just the possibilities, because it happened after you had the biggest crash. 

[00:43:54] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah. During actually, it was so, I mean, like within a year of that. So it was the industry still rock bottom instead of deciding to purchase a home.

My husband and I decided let's reinvest in the business and acquire this other company that we had long since admired. And yeah, they'd been in business longer than us. They were larger than us. It was just a really incredible opportunity, but to your point, it was a huge identity shift because my business was named Eberly travel, right?

My maiden name. So it had always been about. My sales and what I was building and all the things. And that had gotten a little bit old for me. I really just personally was like, I was recognizing how I tied my success to it. I was seeing that something needs to change. There's not a healthy relationship, but then also the idea of scaling means you need to be able to put your team in the spotlight instead of just continuing to put the spotlight on yourself. So why we chose to rebrand was we actually created the narrative around it. That was going from me to we, and we want to create something that we as a whole are proud of and proud to represent. And that can actually be a platform that kind of lifts everyone higher instead of just continuing to spotlight the founder.

So that was a very intentional effort. But that acquisition and that time, so it was like the, the leveling of the business actually catapulted us to achieve all of the goals that I had set for myself for the next 10 years in a matter of less than two years. So that's incredible. But now you're on the other side of that and going, well, I don't really know what we're supposed to do next.

Like, this is officially gotten larger than I ever thought it would, you know? So. As a career 

[00:45:24] Kellee Wynne: mentors, 

[00:45:26] Lindsey Epperly: mentors. Exactly. But I mean, as a creative, your, your job oftentimes is to cast a vision. And so I really had to step back and kind of take some self care time and to really pour into myself creatively to say, well, what vision do I now have for this?

I still want to be able to steer this ship. It's just a lot of a larger ship than I thought it would be. And so what could we achieve? And that gets a little bit more exciting, right? So our goal this year was Amplify, which is why we launched a podcast. That was the whole idea is to like get out of this echo chamber that we've been in and amplify the voice of what the company is doing and where our story is and where we're going.

And that's been really, really special because now it allows me to infuse my own talents of speaking, communicating, writing. 

[00:46:08] Kellee Wynne: Exactly. Full circle for you. Yes. So much fun. It only took 

[00:46:12] Lindsey Epperly: 10 years. It only took 10 years. Or maybe 34 if we're really counting. 

[00:46:17] Kellee Wynne: Oh yeah, right. Let's talk about the whole life here.

So when we keep talking about like the big dip, Everyone probably understands right now what we're talking about with 2020 and the whole world shut down there weren't even planes flying for a while, like, so it must have been incredibly scary. I think the only other two times it was before you were in business was after 9 11 attacks, things shut down and travel got hard.

And during the recession, things were pretty, pretty bad. Challenging then too, but then you saw this huge flourish through the 2010s and then we're all thinking 2020 party like it's 2020 and literally the world said, sure, here, let me hand you a pandemic. And so your travel agency struggled and you chose to sell your house so you could keep the business open.

But what I think is really cool is you said at this point where we're like practically making nothing, let's take everything we have and grow the business bigger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is huge leveling up and that's got to be from years of going from can I do this? I'm making this a little fun thing to turning it into real business to honestly what I feel the same way.

Not that my business is the same as yours, but once you get to a certain point, it's like your heart cracks open, your head cracks open, and you're like, this whole world is out there that I had been playing so small before, thinking, okay, great, so I'll sell a few paintings and a few prints, or I'll teach an art workshop here or there, I'll have a little extra spending money, you know, I'll have enough that I can help pay for the food bill.

Great, that's a great accomplishment, until you start saying, wait a minute, Money is infinite. It's not pie. There's enough for everybody. And the bigger I grow the business, the better it gets. And there's so many, there's so many levels that I haven't even tapped into yet. So you took that huge risk. You had to really level up and see a big picture.

And I'm assuming that at that point, whereas even though travel wasn't going great, probably acquisition was really good because other businesses were like tapping out on this. But now look at it, like last year everyone was in Italy. I think there were like a hundred memes or more on that. A thousand memes.

Everyone was traveling last year. Everyone's going to be traveling this year. I'm traveling. I have like three trips already planned. Where do you see things growing from this point out? And what are you going to need to do to be the person to keep scaling? 

[00:48:55] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah. Ah, such good stuff. So yeah, running a travel agency when there are no planes flying is not a fun task. Not a lot of travel we could plan during that time, but you're right. It, it did allow us to kind of start looking inward. And what we did was we kind of built a community. We actually built an open door community where anyone in the industry could come to our meetings. We would have open conversations about how can we be in this together?

So that's actually what started expanding my horizons to your point of, Oh, this is a lot bigger than I've thought. Been imagining it, right? You're starting to see now this industry is opened up. And now that we've grown even beyond that, now this world is opened up. And I think it doesn't necessarily take a pandemic to have that happen in your business.

A lot of times I think it happens naturally at those re up moments. You and I were talking about this before we started. Yeah. I call where you're starting to feel that tension of well, what got me here is not going to get me there. If I want this business to keep scaling and also I want to keep my sanity, I might have to break it and start over a little bit, right?

Like certain processes. So when you ask like what's next and what are we looking forward to the future? For me, I see this incredible team and, we invested in this team ahead of growth. So we even after actually right before the acquisition, we wound up even hiring someone in the middle of the world pandemic because we saw the potential that this had to do on the other side.

And we realized if we didn't hire then we would be behind the eight ball. So we have long believed in let's invest in the team ahead of growth. We've done that in this situation as well, where we know we have the potential to really thoughtfully grow to be well known as the quality travel agency for the modern traveler.

That's what Jet Set's goal is. And so what does that look like? And to me, it's reinvesting in my team. So I have a beautiful team in place and I then started realizing, and my husband as well, who is my business partner, we started looking at ourselves and realizing, wow, we've done it. Never led people who have this title before.

We've never led someone in marketing and in accounting and like, you know, all the things. So how are we going to lead them? So I, like we've been reinvesting in ourself with leadership coaching to make sure that we are serving them well and pouring into our team. Well, so, so that's what it looks like.

It's, it's going deeper in to make sure that we're building out individuals as leaders. Underneath our leadership to because I think otherwise if you start still believing that it just rises and falls on you Then the idea of growth would be incredibly scary because you couldn't take any more on but when you start It's the same thing we've been talking about right when you start passing the baton more and trusting others and knowing that they love your vision Too well anyone ever love it as much as you do No It's your baby But you'll get people who really believe in it and and that is more than enough because it's such a dream that people Oh believe in the same vision that I've cast, right?

Like that's, what an honor to be able to then work alongside them. 

[00:51:44] Kellee Wynne: Super exciting when someone else is willing to take a risk in you. And that's why I think of those that I work with as probably the most important backbone, that and the community that we've built around it. But what I hear the most is Leadership is the key and you sought out mentorship and, and coaching all these years, each step of the way, you didn't just say, I'm going to piece it together and watch a few YouTube videos and figure it out.

You sought out people who knew enough to help you get to that point. And I really do feel like that's the next step for those who are, scaling beyond the very beginning parts of their business. It's about learning how to be a leader. When it's not just a leader to your people, but a leader in the industry, a leader to your customers, a leader in how you communicate and and Lindsey, that's what you're doing right now is stepping out in the way that you communicate and the way that you're like, reaching out more publicly for your businesses is showing. a step forward as a leader and it's scary because, for me, I've always had this fear around my identity being too bossy, which is why I'm saying I'm boss, not bossy. And, and maybe even teased and picked on as a child and into even into my adult years of always having to be the one in charge or as you said, in control of everything.

But as I let go and I don't want, I want to hide. I did a whole period of time where I was hiding behind other people. Where now I realize what I need to do to take that role as a leader doesn't mean that it's about ego. It's about helping all other people rise up as well. But if you don't take that step, you can't help them move up in their journey as well.

[00:53:32] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah. And what a shame it would have been if you had not stepped into that, right? Like think about the number of lives that you've impacted personally and the ripple effect that those then create on others. What a tragic situation if you had continued staying behind other people instead of like stepping into your potential as a leader.

And I think when I look at today's world, there are not enough great leaders that are stepping up and saying, from a good kind place of wanting to lead and wanting to, but some of that starts with the whole mindset that we've been talking about. I think a lot of people would listen and say, well, that applies to someone who has like management positions or that applies to someone who's running a team, but I think like your lead.

In yourself, you're oftentimes you're leading your home, like you, you have leadership situations that you're already in. And if you look at yourself as a leader, then you can step into a whole lot more power and an influence in a positive way, right? You're not 

[00:54:25] Kellee Wynne: right. I mean, aren't we already saying, Hey, I want to be a leader by taking the time to build our social media accounts.

Yeah. By having just said, okay, I want to build a business and I've made this art course, or I've made this, subscription base, whatever I've, I've built up a service for, for whatever it is that you've done, you've already put yourself in a role of wanting to be a leader or having to be a leader.

And now, It would be really great if you stepped in that role of wanting to be the leader. 

[00:54:56] Lindsey Epperly: Yes. 

[00:54:56] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. I mean, leadership doesn't mean ego or control over other people. Leadership is, is the one who's out in front helping pull along everybody else with you so that we all rise up. Yeah. 

[00:55:09] Lindsey Epperly: And we all face those same challenges that come with it too.

I think that that's really why I felt on my heart that I needed to start putting out the messages that we're doing over at Who Made You The Boss is because when you start stepping into those roles, it's really easy to get in your head and then to think like, well, who am I going to talk to about the fact that I feel like a total imposter?

Or like, I can't talk about burnout because then my team's going to know, you know, like you have all these things that you then just keep to yourself and, and that's not healthy. 

[00:55:39] Kellee Wynne: Right, which is why we're talking about it now, because the truth of the matter is, is you get into a business like this and the first, one of the first words we're discussing in this podcast is hustle, burnout, exhaustion, anxiety.

These are all things that we deal with, but on the other side of it, it's like nothing else that I can even describe, you know, it's just a really exciting time to connect with other people. 

[00:56:04] Lindsey Epperly: I agree. I think that the power of that human connection, even just this whole conversation, right? Like I'm walking away so much more energized because we've been able to openly talk about all of this.

[00:56:14] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, it's really exciting. Okay, I have a couple of questions now for funds for funds. One of my biggest goals is to get people to think outside of the box for creating their business. It's not just I made art. I sell art. Right. I'm hoping I'm reaching out to a broader audience of not just artists, but I make a thing.

I sell a thing that there are so many ways to build a creative business. I listed a hundred in my free PDF, but there's probably a thousand different things I've thought of since then. And of course, one of my personal favorites, which is what sparked me to say, yes, I want to have you on the. Podcast is I love travel and I really do feel like art and travel go together a lot.

Whether you're going to be inspired by a location, you're going to make art with other artists in a location, you're going to go see art, and famous art in museums, historical stuff, the Uffizi or the Louvre or whatever. Travel means that you get to experience all of these things. I would love it if you could just like paint a teeny little picture of like how artists could incorporate travel into their business because you run a very successful travel agency.

[00:57:25] Lindsey Epperly: Yeah, I love that idea too. We do have people come to us a lot of times that talk about some sort of retreat style situation. And I think that's probably where my mind first goes to, right? If you have individuals who want to participate in the medium that you are best at, to be able to bring them along on a trip that you've either been to before, where you've already received inspiration or where, you know, Oh, this is short to do it.

Like this is so for me as a I think about the number of times that I've. Traveled and because you're stepping out of your comfort zone, you're receiving just new input and ideas and creative motions that you would have never had otherwise. So to think about actually putting thought and intention behind that of, I am a painter and I know this particular destination in France is going to inspire others to want to paint in this style.

And we can also, we can tour the history. Yes, but we can also set up our own studio time. What a gift that would be. 

[00:58:20] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, I think that that's a really fun business model or even one of my check the box one day, kind of traveling about meeting with artists in the destination where they live and creating my own like video series of behind the scenes.

Wouldn't that be like, we really don't tap in enough of the possibilities and even travel. I see how travel. Agencies like old school up until the internet came along, we really did rely on travel agencies. And then there came a period of travel agencies might be dead because of the internet. And now we're full circle again, where I don't want to have to plan everything, please help me.

And I can see that even, you know, all these travel consultants have a whole new path of ways that they could build business for other people, like building, building there. Pathway as as travel coordinators. I actually have a few friends that that's their whole business model is to create art retreats.

[00:59:23] Lindsey Epperly: Cool. I love that. Well, and I also think about like the number of times I've been to really immersive, cool destinations and hotels that have artists in residence programs, right? Like where you could tap into that as well, or be one yourself. 

[00:59:36] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. So many potential. future possibilities and I hope everyone's brains are spinning with potential and also the realization that you do have that genius in you and you can scale up and make something pretty amazing.

All right, I'm going to ask you a question that I love to ask almost everyone, sometimes I forget, but this is one that I'm going to put you a little on the spot. What's your big audacious dream? 

[01:00:05] Lindsey Epperly: It's to get a book into the world. Like I mentioned earlier, you know, when you have that annual and it's clawing its way out and mine has clawed its way out.

And now I need to figure out how do I make sure it serves the world well and what does that look like? 

[01:00:18] Kellee Wynne: That's exciting. All right. So publish book for Lindsey Epperle. That's that's we're calling out to the world. You're listening. It's time. Thanks Kellee. Got a lot of great messages. How can everyone connect with you?

What would be the best way? 

[01:00:34] Lindsey Epperly: Yes. Gosh, I love connecting with people. I love hearing what people are working on, what questions they have. I'm very active on Instagram at Lindsey Epperly. And then I've mentioned a couple of times that I recently launched a podcast called Who Made You The Boss, where we just constantly talk about and talk to people about, all of these ideas of burnout and perfectionism and imposter syndrome, all the kind of growly things that often come with entrepreneurship.

[01:00:55] Kellee Wynne: Awesome. Well, connect and connect with me as well, because I'd love to hear what everyone thought of this podcast. As I always say, it's just me in the DMs. It's the real Kellee doing that. Nobody else I hire out for all kinds of things, but that DM that's me. I love that. Awesome. Thank you so much, Lindsey.

[01:01:18] Lindsey Epperly: Thank you, Kellee. It's really been a treat talking to you today.