6 Superstar Episodes from 2023

[00:00:00] Kellee Wynne: Well, hello, all my friends out there. This is Kellee Wynne. And you're listening to the Made Remarkable podcast. It's been a hot minute since I've been in here. We're taking a little break for the first of the year. We'll be back with full episodes in February. And you're not going to want to miss them because we have some amazing interviews.

And I'm even doing a few new Solo episodes, myself, things that'll really help you get going with your business this year. Stay creative and make an impact in the world. Cause that's my goal. Speaking of goals, I am really excited to. The next version of Build It Remarkable. It's not going to happen until June.

But I want it all to be on your radar because it's going to be epic. In fact, I decided epic was my word of the year. So what do you think about that? I just have. Big dreams and big hopes for the future for all the artists and creatives out there to make sure that they're living their big audacious dreams, you know, nothing makes me happier than when I see success for other people, I honestly love this job so much.

I love showing up on the podcast. I love serving you. It's been an absolute pleasure. In fact, I think there was something just so remarkable about 2023 that's setting me in the right direction. for 2024. How about you? I like to look at the rosy side. You know that there's always some ups and downs along the way, but overall, my outlook is beautiful.

Despite all the hardships, despite the wars in this world, despite suffering, I have to look at what's still good so that we can keep moving forward. And your art. And your love, and your concern for other people, how you show up in this world, the connections you make, the way that you serve others, that's the reason that we keep going, that's the reason we keep doing, and that's the reason we keep showing up, and so I will continue to show up for you, if you'll continue to show up for the world, that's all I'm asking, bring more beauty into this world so that we have a reason for our happiness and our joy and our connection. Maybe it's a little sentimental to start the year off, but that's how I'm feeling right now. I miss you, but I also know that there's times when I need a break. So I'm taking a little break right now, getting everything, all the ducks in a row, getting everything in order, so that I can serve you better.

Today, I have kind of a mishmash of a few of my favorite podcast episodes from 2023. There were so many good ones, but we just picked five so that you can be reminded of some of the great conversations we had, and hopefully you'll go back and listen to them again. Share them with a friend because I really want the podcast to grow this year.

I'd love to double our listenership. I'm at 100, 000 downloads, which is really remarkable, but why not 200, 000 by the end of 2024? Are you willing to help me with that? Pick your favorite episode and share it with a friend today. Tag me on Instagram at Kelly Wynn Studios. Send me a message in the DM and tell me which one.

really impacted you. I'd love to hear from you. It is me in my own DMs. I don't have anyone working my Instagram for me. I will respond to you. I would love to have a conversation here where you're at and what the next step is for you. All right, enough now and on with the episode and thank you so much for letting me take a little mini break through January.

We'll be back in February. Love all of you so much.


[00:03:54] Kellee Wynne: Hi, Drew. Welcome to the Made Remarkable Podcast.

Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me. I'm really happy to share my story and, help anyone out there that might be trying to do the same thing. Yes. You have amazing art, and it's just so eye catching, and then I was obsessed about it. Tell us a little bit about the art journey that you've been on, and how you ended up where you're at.

[00:04:14] Drew Steinbrecher: Let's see. When I was a kid, I was pretty crafty. I wouldn't call myself artsy, but I like using my hands to make things. I took art classes in high school, et cetera.

And I discovered that I had kind of a natural ability with design. So I studied graphic design at college, still along that whole journey. I never thought of myself as an artist. I was just always like a designer. And I think that was just because artists can draw. And I didn't really, I still don't really have that good of a drawing ability.

So you know, like I'm not an artist. I can't draw, you know, so I did the graphic design thing. I worked as a graphic designer professionally for about 10 years, and then I decided just to go out on my own. I've been doing freelance graphic design since then, and along the way, I got back into the whole crafts thing.

I started with knitting, then that eventually led to quilt making, and then I got into what are called art quilts. And then that was kind of the first time I realized maybe I am an artist. I don't have to know how to draw to become an artist. Right. There's all different, all different ways you can make art.

I started taking classes with a quilt maker named Nancy Crow. And she has this really fantastic facility near Columbus. And all these art quilters come from everywhere to take classes with her. And that was kind of the first time I saw someone really like making a living as an artist. And I thought, okay, maybe I can, maybe I could do this.

Maybe I could figure this out. So I started selling my work along the way there, I did also discover gel plates, which probably a lot of your listeners know me from my gel plate work, I started sharing everything online, people were asking how I was doing it, people, more and more people became interested.

I was trying to sell my work. It was okay. It was going okay, but I couldn't really. See myself making a living as an artist, just through selling my work. Eventually I started seeing people selling online classes. I thought, okay, maybe I could do this. Maybe I could figure this out. And around then that's when you approached me about the virtual art summit.

[00:06:15] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, I want to point out while some interesting points that you may like one, you thought you weren't an artist, which is a big aha for people to finally come full circle and be like, okay, well, maybe this is art after all, being an artist doesn't mean you have to draw or that you can paint a portrait or anything like that.

It's like just an expression of your creativity. And I love hearing how this Need for making kept coming back to you and it evolved over time for anyone who has followed drew or looks at his instagram account. You will see a clear consistency in your quilting and your paper, making and your gel plating, like, all of it.

I think you're 1 of the most iconic. Voices that that consistency transforms over multiple different mediums, and I love that's why it stood out so much to me and the colors that you use. Obviously, your graphic design sense really comes through. And I just was like, I'm still obsessed. I'm still obsessed with what you do to this day.

I'm always, I always have, which is why your Instagram account keeps growing. It is really Like it's so much fun to follow you and see what you're making. But that was like, I have to have them on the virtual art summit. I always choose people that I want to learn from that. I find interesting, appealing, that have a point of view.

That's going to be different for, you know, the audience, for people to like really awaken their senses in their way of doing things. So I was so happy that you said yes, even though you were like, I'm not so sure. I guess this is a learning curve. I'm about ready to jump into. And you have also noticed, I remember you saying to me, you said, well, a lot of people have been asking me lately how I do it.

So I guess now's the time to start. 

[00:07:59] Drew Steinbrecher: Yeah. I'm the type of person that has to do all the research and look at all this stuff. And until I decide, okay, I can finally do this. So I was looking at how do you make a course? How do you do this? How do you do video? How you teach on video? And when you asked me to do that, I was the virtual art summit.

I thought, okay, this is the moment. This is the time I have to say yes. I don't, I don't really know how to do video. I've been researching it, but I've never done it. How do I do a voiceover? I don't know. I guess I can, I guess I can figure it out. So that was the push that kind of made me realize I could do it, you know?

And there's like a, you can keep researching and looking and looking and trying this. Eventually you just have to do it. And that came along just at the right moment for me. 

[00:08:41] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, I totally know what you mean about that. Like, overanalyzing it took me probably. Two years from the time I said, I think I want to do this till the time I finally actually did it and I hear that story quite often because we think it's tech that's holding us up, but or which platform or how am I going to do this?

How am I going to edit it? What am I going to say? Will people even buy it? Like, we have all these ridiculous, perfectionist fears that come up that we've got to get it right. But in the end, it's still an evolution. You put out your first one, you know what you can do better the next time. 

[00:09:12] Drew Steinbrecher: Also along the way of doing all that research, I came across advice that was like, if people are asking you these questions, that's the perfect thing to make a class. Right. I was. Mostly through Instagram, people were asking mostly with gel plates. How are you doing this? How what is that?

What kind of paper you're using? What kind of pain are you using? And that's when I realized I, I could answer these questions through a class and online class. 

[00:09:37] Kellee Wynne: Exactly. That's definitely a clue. If people are asking you. Anything doesn't even matter what field you're in. Then you know that you already have a captive audience.

Yes. And thank goodness. I came in and asked just at the right time to like, kind of push you. And we did that. . And it really wasn't that long from the virtual art summit to launching your first course, because You kept going and you created a course that you launched, I think, in September ish of the same year. That's 2021. 

[00:10:05] Drew Steinbrecher: Yeah. So obviously you asked for those videos ahead of time. So I had done that in spring and I thought, okay, well, that was doable. I'm going to start doing my class now. So I had already started the beginning of the summer when the virtual art summit had already launched. I had already started recording a lot of my videos.

So through that summer, I recorded the videos. I was editing them. I recorded more videos. I did the voiceovers and just got the class ready. And again, I just had to say, it's got to be this date. Like I have to launch on this date because I could have kept just pushing it, you know? Yes. So I picked the date in September and launched it.

And it went well. 

[00:10:40] Kellee Wynne: Yes. I got a message from Drew that was like, Oh shit, now what do I do? What's the next step? How do I actually make a real business out of this? 

[00:10:48] Drew Steinbrecher: Yeah. So it blew my expectations out of the water, both with the feedback I was getting everyone, like, you know, enjoyed it and was really getting value from it.

I was answering those questions that people were asking. And then of course. Financially, I was just totally blown away. And that's when I realized this could turn into something more than just a one off class that I launched. Right, right. So how do I scale the business? And I knew, obviously I knew you from the virtual art summit and I thought, okay, well, she knows what she's doing.

She's done this. She's scaled a business. Right. And I'm sure at one point, obviously you had your first class and then you had to figure it out from there and grow the business. So that's when I approached you and said, what do I do next? 

[00:11:29] Kellee Wynne: And then Q, my first mastermind group, which was really amazing.

It was a really good jump for me. I had coached people before, but this was the first time having the type of a container where we were actively working on growing our business to be a full time sustainable job, and it's been really exciting to see. 

But to go from your original goal , you wanted to grow your email list, grow your Instagram account and your following launch the course again with a better marketing strategy. And your goal was to make 50, 000 . And then what happened? 

[00:12:04] Drew Steinbrecher: I made twice that 

[00:12:06] Kellee Wynne: and you've grown your Instagram by more than double and you've grown your list it's like all these little things one after another. It's so exciting for me to see this and just know there's proof in the pudding

[00:12:16] Drew Steinbrecher: yeah. And I, I can contribute a lot of that to you and the other students and talking on our weekly calls and making goals and talking through technical issues and you know, all that stuff for sure. 

[00:12:29] Kellee Wynne: Definitely. The goal for me is not just like, I, I know mindset is part of it and knowing we can do it as part of it and like really soaking in exceeding.

Where we think we can go and going much further than that, but I love to get like, literally step by step. Okay, you're going to launch it. Let's do this. Here's a plan. And some of the things we implemented were like your free course in order to help build your list and jumping in and participating in other collaborative events and then how to launch your course. and then just how to grow from that has been really fun to see that the steps that I've taken over the last half dozen years. Now, as we implement it specifically into your business model and your way and your voice and what works best for you. And watching it all just evolve from there.

So that's been really fun to see that growth.

[00:13:19] Drew Steinbrecher: I was mentioning this to you earlier. It's given me the opportunity to say, I'm a full time artist. Now

[00:13:25] Kellee Wynne: And that's the thing is when we do well with certain goals of ours, like putting out your print your creativity. When you have goals like that and you do well with that, then you can create other things that are affordable or even free, it balances out.

So that's part of the money mindset, when you make good money, that also means you can serve more, which means you can offer things that are more affordable. You can provide free services. You can start your YouTube channel. You can. Do the podcast. 

[00:13:53] Drew Steinbrecher: Yeah. Going through this process has made me, more aware of other people doing the same thing. So I'm more likely to support someone through like buying their art or buying their class or, you know, et cetera.

 Maybe probably more. That I was before more than you were before and understanding like that price may be high for some people, but I know what went into that, that making that online class. So I'm going to pay that price that person selling it for that price. And I understand what they went through to do that.

And I think that's fair, 

[00:14:21] Kellee Wynne: right? For sure. I think that this is a transformation that's happening for a lot of us too. Okay, Drew, so you've got the summit out you've got your course, your main course that you've done in a free course. What are your big dreams? What's next for Drew and growing his amazing online business? 

[00:14:38] Drew Steinbrecher: I keep going back and forth. Do I maintain what I have? Do I make another larger, more intensive class? I haven't finalized those goals. I think it's probably a few smaller classes. And then maybe down the road, it's some kind of a composition class. I hope that the collage summit works and maybe it can be a yearly thing.

It can be a yearly thing, you know, and I can have another whole set of artists next year. I think that would be really cool. And then again, just maintaining the business. 

I finally hired an accountant. There's all that boring stuff in the background, which I sometimes don't wanna do. I've just found someone else to do it. Right. 

[00:15:16] Kellee Wynne: Right, because as your business grows, you're able to outsource some of the things that as I look at it is they're, they're the tasks that aren't your perfect zone of genius.

Like, you can grow your business more when you stay doing the things that drive your business and the bookkeeping and the, you know, the mundane organization, that's where it's really nice to have the support. And that was the first place I sought out support as well. Definitely. So growing your business into the real deal, I mean, you're already making the income and now it's like establishing that baseline and then seeing where it grows. But anyone who's listening right now, got to come and just find him. What's your Instagram ?

[00:15:53] Drew Steinbrecher: It's just, it's just Drew Steinbrecher. 

[00:15:55] Kellee Wynne: We're gonna write that in the show notes. 

And you can find him but I love to ask this question to everyone who's on my show. What is your big audacious dream?

 If you're going to like Think Big and it doesn't just have to be with your business. Like if you could have anything or do anything in your lifetime, what's the thing that you really want to be able to do? 

[00:16:15] Drew Steinbrecher: I'd love to live in the mountains at some point. It'd be really cool to have a mountain house in Colorado, probably in Colorado.

Yeah. I would love to spend my summers there because I don't like the hot and humid Midwest summers. So, I want to be up in the mountains during the summer, it'd be nice to, for the longest time, I couldn't support. It wasn't necessarily the breadwinner. And now with all this success, now I can be, I can take more responsibility financially. So I've kind of already achieved one of those things. 

 Thank you so much. It was with all your help as well. 

[00:16:48] Kellee Wynne: Oh, yes. Well, I think you were destined for it anyway, Drew, but I'm glad that I got to be part of the journey. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah.

[00:16:57] Drew Steinbrecher: Thanks for asking me. Happy to share my story. We'll do it 

[00:16:59] Kellee Wynne: again sometime soon. Yeah. 

[00:17:01] Drew Steinbrecher: Okay. Bye. 

[00:17:03] Kellee Wynne: Bye.

 Cat is not only my client, but my very dear friend. So welcome Cat Rains to the Made Remarkable Podcast. How are you doing? 

[00:17:25] Catherine Rains: Thank you, Kellee. You know how much I love being here with you, whether I'm on a podcast or just talking to you. I know. It's always a joy. 

[00:17:32] Kellee Wynne: It's so much fun to have like minded spirits in the industry because then we don't feel so alone.

And so even though I know that you were part of the Catalyst Mastermind and my mentoree It's been really lovely that we've been able to become close friends as well. I agree. And that's because you're an amazing person and you are so talented. And I'm going to brag about you for a bit here, but why don't we go back to the beginning for you and your art journey so that our listeners can kind of see all the things that have unfolded for you in the journey to now.

[00:18:02] Catherine Rains: In a nutshell, I never thought I was going to be an artist. That was not my career goal up until I was in my mid 30s. I never thought art was part of my life. I was always a crafter, you know, scrapbooking and knitting and that kind of thing.

But I never did any kind of art. And then I stumbled on collage and it was really just because I needed stress relief. I had a, I had a professional job, you know, with a suit and I was stressed like crazy. And I just thought I got to do something. So I just started ripping magazines up and making collages.

I had never taken an art class ever. And then I just started dreaming like, wouldn't it be cool to do this for a living? Like, does anyone do that? And I started finding artists that actually were collage artists with magazines and they were making a living. So over a number of years, I just kept practicing.

I took a couple workshops by magazine collage artists, and I got to the point where I quit my corporate job the first time and I became a full time artist. And it was phenomenal and horrible at the same time, you know, it was wonderful to have to be able to do art because that's what I had been dreaming of.

Let me do art all the time. But the horrible part was I was much more stressed than having a corporate job because I didn't know where the income was going to come, you know, it was about I had to sell my art all the time, you know, go to festivals always in production mode. So it was actually very little art making.

So that was 4 years of that and life took me away from that. I had circumstances. I had breast cancer. I had a blindside divorce that led me back to my original corporate job. And I really never intended to stay in that corporate job. I taught the Myers Briggs, which is to me, a dream job. You're going to have a dream, a day job.

That was the one to have. I loved it, but it took me around the country. Training on the road, Myers Briggs, and I really had no time for art. So what I thought was going to be a two year gig just to kind of stabilize myself financially without a partner in life turned into a 12 year gig. Because I loved it.

I actually loved the work, but it was. Really, I grieved the whole time because I wasn't doing my art. So I eventually started bringing my art on the road. And I would set up art studios in every single hotel room I was in. And that was the last three years of my traveling art gig. And I made so much art that I started selling it again.

And at the end of, actually it was 2018, I actually quit my job a second time. And I became a full time artist for a second time. And interestingly, my whole life as an artist, starting in my mid 30s to that current day, was all about collage. And when I quit my job a second time, I actually gave myself a year.

To take a break from collage, cause I'd never known anything but collage and I really had never thought of myself as an artist because I can't draw or paint, so to speak. So I thought, wouldn't it be fun just to take art classes for a full year? I'd saved a lot of money up and I was still working part time, part time for my former gig.

You know, I would work 5 days a month I'm still working it, but I'm. Kind of letting that go because I really can't do that and do my art business now, which is fabulous. So the 1st year of becoming a full time artist again, I just allow myself to play and explore.

So I took every art class. They just. Maybe happy. So I took flowers and landscapes and portraits. And I mean, I must have taken a dozen classes in one year and that one year turned into two years. I did two years of this and at the end of the two years, I took a class by someone who was doing mixed media, like painting and collage together and immediately it clipped.

I went, I'm a collage artist. Oh, that's what I do because I completely lit up. But all those classes I took. Yeah. gave me skills to get to the point where I could actually paint and draw on top of collage. So now it's all, it's all come together. But then it took me a couple more years to actually find my voice with all of that because I didn't really know what I wanted to make in collage.

I just knew that collage was it. So it's taken me a little bit of time, but about two years ago, I finally found what kind of collage I love to make. And now. You know, I can't imagine doing anything else. 

[00:22:18] Kellee Wynne: It's pretty iconic, too. We know a Cat Rains when it comes to our feed. Instantly, I know your style, you have a limited color palette for each work that you do, but you also have this gorgeous contrast.

So you definitely are showing us, telling us. Like, honestly, it's the dream and I didn't realize that you spent two whole years taking classes, but I think that's a dream for most of us is like, can we just immerse ourselves in it? Then you can figure out what you like, what you don't like, what works for you, what doesn't work for you and all those things that you tried.

Build the skills for where you are now. And your voice too, like coming to that point of having such a clear, distinguished voice, of course, it always evolves. And I'm sure it will evolve again over time, but it's like, it's cat rains, which is what makes you so remarkable in your. In your course is because it's a very clear point of view and you are capable of really like diving into the heart of how collage is made.

And I love that. 

[00:23:12] Catherine Rains: Well, you know, it's funny because I, the whole 2 years that I was doing this experimentation. I really didn't think I was going to find it, because I was really all over the place, but that is the path, you know, they, people talk about, Oh, I don't know what my unique expression is.

Well, you don't find it unless you follow what kinds of lights you like. And so I just kept doing it. It was like a long trail of all these, like one thing led to the next and the next, and then eventually it got clear. But what was really interesting when I finally found it, I said, okay, mixed media collage, that has always been it.

I just had to, I just had to come back to it. I ended up making a collection of art that I loved. I mean, I loved this collection. It took me a full year to make and I launched it. I thought in a very sophisticated way, it was online. I followed all of the rules I studied, I figured it out. And when I launched it, 30 piece collection, I sold two pieces.

And I cried for two days. This is a year of my life. And I sold two pieces, but it was the greatest thing that ever happened because when I sold two pieces, I went, Oh, if my best work isn't selling, that means I can make anything I damn well, please. And I'm going to. So then this was beginning of COVID. I said, throw it all away.

I'm just going to make whatever I damn well. And that's what I did. So I said, what would you really like to make knowing it's never going to sell because your best work didn't sell. So I just started messing up. I just started like playing with paper and throwing things down. And instantly my voice came out.

Cause people started asking for it on Instagram where they weren't asking for the other stuff. 

[00:24:43] Kellee Wynne: Wasn't exactly your most authentic or true work, and that was kind of showing.

[00:24:48] Catherine Rains: I think so. My heart wasn't coming through it. Even today, though, I love that work. I think it's really well done. But I don't think my heart was in it.

 There's a different energy behind it. Like this, every collage I make now, my soul's in it. I communicate that in every way. It's just, I love these pieces. And so it's just gotten very clear, you know, what I'm supposed to be making. 

[00:25:09] Kellee Wynne: I love that you took that time. I think that that's something that most artists don't really Spend the time doing I, I made the mistake of jumping right into art shows so quickly that I didn't really give enough time.

Yes. I was making art for a couple of years in practice, but it was like, after that, I was like, oh, I want to be in the next art show. I want to be able to show I want to be able to sell it. And I think I jumped into it a little too soon, and I think you came to the same conclusion. 

[00:25:36] Catherine Rains: Yeah, I had this exact same experience. The first time I was a full time artist, I was on the festival circuit. And, once you're in the mode of you got to sell your work, which means you got a lot of, you got to make a lot of work.

You're a factory and there's no voice. There is what's going to sell. And I think that's why I really was thinking I'm a full time artist. I got to sell art. And so it would be perfect. 

[00:25:59] Kellee Wynne: Perfect's the right word, but how many artists do that?

Like there's so much pressure. This is it. When you have to make a lot of work, more of your failures teach you how to keep moving forward.

But when we put so much pressure on that perfectionism, and it's not like it's got to be perfect, perfect, but you're like, you're really thinking of the end result instead of the process. 

[00:26:19] Catherine Rains: Right. You're trying to make good art. And so when I try to make good art, Oh, it's, it's horrible. That's why I try to, you know, what I'm teaching art, I tell people, you can make a collage in 10 minutes.

That's all you got 10 minutes. Because if I just allow myself to make a collage in any amount of time, I will take three hours. I have collages sitting unsold in my studio that are fantastic. It took me three or four months. And they're not sold.

The ones that took me an hour, all sell. What is that about? 

[00:26:48] Kellee Wynne: I think it's the hours and hours of experience lead you to be able to do things in quicker time when you're not overthinking it. That could be it. And so when you can just tap into the intuition, it's just like magic happens. 

[00:27:01] Catherine Rains: Yeah, when I'm not trying to make something to sell, if I'm just making it because it gives me joy, that's when it sells.

[00:27:06] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, for sure. So when did the decision shift for you from focusing on making an income as an artist by selling artwork to doing something different? And then what this last year's journey has been like. 

[00:27:22] Catherine Rains: What I found was, is that it was pretty impossible to make a living. And even though I was selling art that completely spoke to my soul, I loved every single one of these things. I'd be selling for like maybe 2, 500, 3, 500 for the entire collection. And that would present three or four months of my life minimum, probably six months of my life to create that collection.

So you imagine, you know, 3, 500 for six months of work, , I wasn't making any money. Even though I was selling out. So once I found this voice, my art was selling out, which is fantastic. It's a huge ego boost. So one year I did that, sold a couple collections. Then I ended up doing four collections, a calendar, a holiday shop, ornaments.

I made a grand total. Wait for it. 13, 500. Now I tripled my income in one year. So I tripled it from the year before, 13, 000. But I was like, so I work a day gig five days a month and I do this art thing.

 13, 000 isn't sustainable, even though I'm a full time artist. I love what I'm doing. I believe in the art. I believe in myself, you know, this art is part of me. So I had, I started to reevaluate, how do I sustain this lifestyle? I. I really want to make a living as an artist, you know, I do want to sell my art. But what I realized is that selling my art is going to be a side income to teaching my art.

Yeah. And something just dawned on me that I'm okay with teaching people what I do, because what I do is not just art. What I do is connecting my soul to what I'm making and helping other people connect. To what they're making if they want that they can just learn the art. That's all they want is the skill to make the art.

That's great. But what I bring to the table is I want to love that art and I want to love to art to love me and I'll sell the art I make but I want to teach people how to do it and there was a whole series of miracles that happened, you know, it just dawned on me that I wanted to teach art.

 Like, I think I need to do that. And then literally within 2 weeks, you popped into my inbox. 

And you were talking about a coaching program for people who want to do online workshops. I went, Oh, my God. I knew in a minute. That's it. I'm doing it. And I mean, it literally changed my life. So I worked with you and by myself for a year, a solid year, and as soon as I talked to you. Like a light bulb. I mean, not, not a light bulb, a volcano went off in my head and I realized I have it, this is what I'm going to do.

I just knew it. And I started outlining it and I presented it to you a month later, the whole outline. And from then on, I was full on I'm creating collage joy, but here's the thing. It wasn't just creating an art course. And that's the biggest thing I learned with you that I wouldn't have done. If I had just done this by myself, what I learned was the art course is the end product, but 

I have to present it. I have to get an audience for that product. So I spent a whole year learning how to get people to see what I have to offer. So first thing was you strongly suggested that I do the hundred day project. Yeah. And I went, Oh my God, I can't handle anything more. But there was a high level of trust that whatever you were telling me was right.

I just knew it. You were telling me I needed to go live on Instagram and I had no idea what I was going to do on Instagram, but the hundred day project was my tune in Tuesday. So I started presenting every week, a different paper from my tune in for my hundred day project.

And so that kind of set me up with people, they saw my teaching style and they started trusting me you strongly suggested that I produce a five day free class, which was collage kickstart to basically again, introduce people to what I do.

Yeah. And that was just like, you know, 2000 people signed up on the day that I appeared on your virtual art summit in a day. And then just over the course of the year, you just kept adding new things to help increase visibility so that people would event would see collage joy when it actually got launched.

[00:31:33] Kellee Wynne: So just like a marketing plan, because in all honesty, I know there's so many people who have created, they've like, I'm going to make this art course. They create it, they pop it up and they're like, okay, great. I made like, you know, 6, 000 off this art course, but what if they were making 60 or 160? And it's like, there's so much that goes into not just making the course, but the entire ecosystem of building your business.

And that's what we worked on the entire year was your marketing. Your visibility and just how you show up. And yeah, there were a lot of times you're like, there's so much to do, but what was the payoff? Not the literal cents and dollars, but what is the payoff in the end result of working that hard? 

[00:32:16] Catherine Rains: You know, I didn't know until it launched, cause you don't know.

No one's people kept telling me I'm taking collage story. Everyone kept telling me I'm signing up for collage story, but I didn't know what that meant, you know, cause no one's signing up yet. I mean, a lot of people signed up. You know, 350, 350 people signed up and it, honestly, was the most heart blowing open experience I've ever probably ever had in my life. The first night of the launch, not only were you like on the texting me once an hour, but my husband brings home the best bottle of champagne because this was a year of my life. This wasn't all of a sudden I launched Collage Joy.

This was a year. Of sweating, a year of rejoicing, a year of panic, a year of, Oh my God, I don't know if I can do this. And you, Miss Kellee, I mean, you were the biggest cheerleader I've ever had in my entire life. And I just have to tell you, and I've told you many times, you're the best investment I ever made in my entire art career.

[00:33:17] Kellee Wynne: The joy that you get to see when people are learning their creativity and connecting with their soul because they have an opportunity to make art. And they're finding each other in community and making friends and like, I know, life around this really.

To me has been one of the reasons why I will never really let go of that part of serving the community. I get to do what I love and I see other people thrive. And we talk about selling art, which is, it's a component of building a well rounded art business for sure. But then when you add in these out of the box. Things, courses, coaching, workshops, in person retreats, whatever it is, that's like different from the traditional path of I make art, I sell art.

It just radically shifts things and not just financially, but how you serve. And it's been unbelievable. It is how you serve because, because like you said, it took you a whole year to put. So yes. Great. You made it. Incredible, healthy income doing what you love and you well deserve it because you work your ass off for it.

You really did sometimes quite often 7 days a week. We're hoping to let off the gas a little bit in the next year, right? Have a little healthy boundaries around it, but it's like, it is what it takes to connect with people and be visible and, and let that creative gift shine. 

[00:34:42] Catherine Rains: Yeah. But I have to tell you, there's something about you telling me, there were many things that you told me that when you told me I would go. Okay, I'm doing it,

and it's an insane thing in my head that just says, you're going to have your own art business. 

It's just now that things are starting to click and I can actually make a living. 

[00:35:00] Kellee Wynne: Having that space to be able to have the business thrive and be able to reach more people. Making a business bigger isn't for everyone, but for those like you and I, who are like just super passionate about what we do. And knowing that if I make it bigger, more people are going to be able to participate. I can give more, I can make more, I can do more.

So what were some of your big aha moments, things that you learned for yourself throughout the year and the experience that you had? . You've been in business for a long time, but this first year really going all in on this idea.

What were some of your aha moments? 

[00:35:35] Catherine Rains: The biggest aha moment is how much time and energy I needed to put into showing people that I'm a teacher. You know, I had to demonstrate that without expecting anyone to pay me for that. When I look at the people that signed up for Collage Joy, and I look at who took Collage Kickstart, almost all of them took Collage Kickstart.

So most people who signed up for Collage Joy already got to test out what I do. They knew what I was going to offer. And I really think that that was the key ingredient that I never would have guessed. They call it an opt in, you know, it's like a lead magnet. How do you get someone to want to at least look at what you have to offer and offering a five day free course was out of my realm of possibility until you said to do it, before that I was offering a resource list, which by the way, I still offer, but that does not generate people wanting to look at you.

 And trust you with their money, and their time.

[00:36:31] Kellee Wynne: know you've taken a lot of training before you've taken our course, our courses on art business and, and whatnot, what made things different working with me versus what you've learned in the past. 

[00:36:43] Catherine Rains: So I took a couple other art business courses, and they were good, you know, they weren't not like they were bad courses, but what made it exponentially different working with you is that you were very direct in telling me this is what you need to do.

It wasn't like around about, maybe you want to think about this was this is how you build an audience. You can do it in many different ways. Like you didn't actually say you have to go make a five day course, but you did say, this is, what's going to help you get to where you want to go.

It was very, very direct, very specific and concrete steps as opposed to these are nice to have, this is what you need to do. Without directing me, you were giving me very, very concrete steps. And here's the thing, Kellee, the reason I trusted you so much and still trust you because I will follow you anywhere is because you've already walked the walk. When you told me how successful you are income wise, I went, okay, that's it. I'm done because you walk the walk, you know how to do this. Whereas, you know, other artists, it's not like they didn't know how to do it, but they, one, weren't as successful as you by a long shot. It's not like I need to make your income, but I want to make a full income for my art. That has always been my intention. I don't even know why I have that goal, but it's in my brain. It's in my DNA.

I am making a full income as an artist. 

[00:38:12] Kellee Wynne: You are in business. And your business is art, then it should be as profitable as possible, because when you're profitable, you can do more, you can help more, goes through you and to the next thing. And you're not taking away from other people's success, you're just showing more people that artists can be successful.

So I love that you want that, and I see that you're getting it, and there's no reason why you can't even do better than me. And I would be cheering you on the whole way. 

And I'm glad that I said that to give that spark. And that's what I, that's what I'm trying to help my audience, my listeners, my clients. Whomever is out there that really has a spurning passion to be able to build a profitable business, that that clicks in their head that it is possible. Yes, it's work.

It doesn't always have to be a whole year's worth of work just to have one single outcome, but you build this strong foundation and then you go and you keep adjusting your sales a little bit along the way. And something beautiful grows out of that. I think the thrill of building building a business is as exciting as everything else in the business.

That's probably why I've been so passionate about serving and helping artists make money because when once you know that it's possible, it's like, there's nothing that can stop you from actually doing it except for yourself. 

There's abundance. There's abundance of creativity. There's abundance of wealth. There's abundance of love in this universe. You just have to tap into it. And so the more I give it, the more there is. It's really amazing how that happens. 

That's why I thrive off of my students thriving. That's why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's such a pleasure and a joy to see your success. Look at what goodness is just continues to evolve. Okay. So before I have you pop off, I want you to tell us what your big audacious dream or dreams or whatever it is that you see that you want to make happen for your future.

[00:40:02] Catherine Rains: Okay. Well, I'm hoping someone's listening to this that can make this dream come true. Okay. Okay. So this is a dream I've had since 1996. Kellee, you've never heard this. I don't think. I don't think I have. I've had this insane dream. Almost as insane as wanting to be a full time artist. I want to teach at Omega.

Oh, yes. And Omega is a spiritual retreat center in upstate New York. And it's where I took my first collage class. But it was a collage class with a very spiritual teacher. And ever since I took that class, until COVID. I've been going there once a year for a week or two. And I just adore this place.

And it's always been in my brain. I want to teach at Omega. So someone hears this. I know that I will just get connected. Esalon, by the way, would be just as good. That's in California. And a cousin to that dream, just so you know, is I want to teach in different places around the world. I would love to spend five days in Provence and five days in Berlin.

[00:40:56] Kellee Wynne: I know, you have to plant the seeds and build the foundation. It doesn't happen overnight. 

[00:41:00] Catherine Rains: There she goes. There she goes again. Yeah, 

[00:41:03] Kellee Wynne: I, I know that for anyone who's selling a story of you can have it all and have it in three months, they're like, they're lying to you, but you can have it all if you work for it and you keep dreaming for it and you keep putting that magic out into the world like you just did.

I love it. I absolutely adore it, and I will be the first to sign up if you do get the teaching gig at Omega. Just so you know, Ew, not f, excuse me. Words matter. When you get the gig at Omega. 

[00:41:30] Catherine Rains: Thank you. It's becoming that for me, like now. It's no longer a dream. I, I'm just waiting for the person to call.

[00:41:35] Kellee Wynne: That's a huge mind shift that we went through this year, isn't it? I love it. Okay, so where can everybody follow you 

[00:41:41] Catherine Rains: on Instagram. It's @catrains.Artist. Okay, Kares. My website is catherine rains.com 

[00:41:47] Kellee Wynne: and I will have it in all the show notes and make sure that everybody knows how to follow you and find you. Thank you, Cat.

 Hello, Laura. It has been such a long time, but the last I think we talked, I was on your podcast a couple years ago. How are you doing?

[00:42:15] Laura Horn: I'm really good and I'm thinking back, gosh, that's quite a long time ago. A lot has changed for both of us in So, I'm looking forward to catching up.

[00:42:23] Kellee Wynne: I am too, and there's so much to just see how things have evolved and unfolded over the last couple years. 

[00:42:30] Laura Horn: I get so inspired talking to other artists. It always feeds me in some kind of way.

[00:42:35] Kellee Wynne: and it feels good. Like, you're not so alone. We don't have our water cooler, like other businesses, you know, hang around and talk. 

[00:42:43] Laura Horn: Yeah, it's funny. I was only just talking to my son yesterday about the fact that we don't have a water cooler because when I'm working from home, I come down all the time. I'm always having breaks like coffee and snacks and right?

watching a bit on YouTube. And he's like, what are you doing when you're meant to be working?

And I'm like, well, it's actually really intense when you work for yourself working for. Seven or eight hours straight you don't have a water cooler. You don't have people to just have a little chat with. So, so yeah, 

[00:43:12] Kellee Wynne: And then suddenly our kids and our husband become our co workers and they're like, I don't want to hear about it anymore. Mom, I have two adult sons and one in So it's like, they're so over it. They're like, just do your thing, mom.

[00:43:28] Laura Horn: Yeah, my kids haven't reached that age yet. They're quite interested, in fact, they both think that they can manage me and give me a lot of tips and advice and, and in fairness, they have really good ideas. It's actually great chatting to kids because they're in the thick of it and in the thick of social media and trends and what's happening and that can be relevant for any business.

So how do you use technology and stuff like that?

[00:43:52] Kellee Wynne: How to think outside the box. Really? They're really good at coming up with. Fabulous ideas and sometimes while I did work with my middle son for a long time, he was doing all my video editing then I ended up spending time just talking to him about the business and he always had the most solid business advice.

Like, mom, just do 1 and do it really well. Stop dividing yourself in half with all these other ideas. I'm like, okay, you're right. It's hard when you're creative because you want to try all the things, but.

[00:44:22] Laura Horn: You know, you saying that. The one biggest advice I always say, but it's so hard to actually do it, isn't it?

[00:44:30] Kellee Wynne: It's my biggest to power of one, one offer, one social media channel, just like go all in. And when you're trying to do all the things you just, I can get depleted really fast when I'm trying to put too many different, things on the burner at once, it's just too much. And I know that's the secret sauce, just, what's essential and then focusing in on it.

Speaking of. You did something really intense over the last year and you're to the end of it.

[00:45:01] Laura Horn: I am.

[00:45:02] Kellee Wynne: How has it felt doing a whole year long project?

[00:45:06] Laura Horn: You know, it's been really interesting. There's been a lot of Great things that have come out of it because it has forced us, me and Ritchie, in a way to continually put ourselves out there, make classes, refine skills, and we were only talking about it recently, just how much better we have got at the whole process of creating videos, talking, sharing. All that sort of stuff. So it's been really good from that perspective. Um, another aspect of it that has been great is just continually painting and.


any big breaks because each time a month would roll around, I would need to get straight back into my own creative practice first. And with this class, it was a little bit different.

It was really like following me along the journey of a year. So it enabled me to still do a lot of personal art and then turn that into the class.

And so that was really great. It, it really helped my own creative practice and my own skills. So that was the good side of it, but the downside of it was it was more intense than what we thought it would be. And we didn't find that we had a lot of break time because a month isn't that long when you've got. things cropping up, holidays, whatever, you know, it comes around really quick. And to come up with like a whole course concept each month, practice the ideas, come up with the videos, record the videos, edit the videos, and then make a sales page and do all the marketing


month is really intense. And one of the things I did at that, at the beginning was I decided to release each module individually, as well as. Doing just the whole year long program. And that was great from the point of view that it enabled us to share it to people that didn't sign up at the beginning of the year. It gave us that monthly income as well, the pressure of

[00:47:10] Kellee Wynne: because you've made the commitment. It has to be done. There's no, 

[00:47:14] Laura Horn: so yeah, so good, there were good things, but it was a pretty intense year and I'm not sure if I would do it the same way if I did it again, I didn't really feel like we could have a break. So it felt very much like we were on all year long. I don't know if it's my favorite model, when it comes to delivering courses, and at the beginning, when I was kind of getting this whole idea together, I thought about doing like a membership and I know you've had experiences with membership and challenges with memberships

[00:47:46] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, a hard model. Actually, it's hard model

[00:47:51] Laura Horn: and I decided that wasn't the model for me.

[00:47:54] Kellee Wynne: and a year of creating on demand probably leaves you to realize how much more that was the right decision to just do it in a year. And then now you have an end date. So, you know that you can. Take a break membership models for art. It's really challenging because you always have to make content and at least with your course, people could purchase it as a whole, or they can do the individual classes and buy the ones that interest them.

And now you have, I mean, look, you've got 12 classes that are evergreen and I that idea that it's not just like all put together in 1 ongoing membership. So I know that there's a place for memberships and some people. Love that model, but as you know, I had to say goodbye to my membership model and courses have been a lot easier for me, still a lot of work, like you said, because every time you have an idea, there's a new sales page and photos to be taken and marketing to be done and it's got to get on each channel and did I make a real and like, it just goes on and on, you know,

[00:49:01] Laura Horn: yeah, there really isn't a perfect, model out there. They all

pros and cons and you really have to think about what you're like, like what's your personality like, what would feel good? Would it be too much for you to have that ongoing thing of a membership? Or for some people, they really thrive with it., you know, it's really about figuring out what works. So this particular model that I ran with, I think it was quite intense doing it. But now we have 12 really amazing classes, which we repurpose in many ways, pull clips out, create reels from. As we were doing it, we kept reminding ourselves, okay, this is gonna be a really busy year for making content, but next year will be more about the marketing repackaging. So we knew that there bit of hard work to be done. So that bit of, you know, Grind in a way, uh, in order to get where we wanted to go.

[00:49:59] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, like you said, there's pluses and minuses to each model. So putting out a course can be intense and bigger courses can take up to a year to really master a great course there like a top level course and then small courses. They still take up a lot of time and you are compressing that time into month by month.

And that's like, wow, that's a lot. But each course that you were offering just look like this beautiful, like everything that someone would want all in one package. So I've, I've loved watching. Every single offer that you've made and how you present it, it's really gorgeous. And I'm happy for you to have a little bit of a break now your year long commitment has come to an end.

And yes, now you get to see how your hard work is paying off. I want to go back to the very beginning. Laura, and just find out how you got into the whole business of art and then making courses, because I think for most of us who've been around the art scene for a while, since we've been on Instagram in the early teens, you were the forefront that paved the way for us.

[00:51:12] Laura Horn: That's a really lovely question. I appreciate you asking me this. Let me try and think back because it is a while back. I, I, first of all, I started making art as a hobby. So have not ever gone to art school or anything like that. I have a story that's similar to many people. I was. It's at home, young children, just in that stage where you're really looking for something for yourself.

very busy, but you are craving something. And I came across, some that were out there sharing on Instagram. In fact, it was my sister who introduced me to this whole idea and this world of mixed media art and online courses and workshops. And it really was. to me. Like I'd really been searching for something. And so I threw myself into that making art and I just made art and all sorts of different styles and things and experimented. And I shared my journey on Instagram. And I also had a blog as well. So I was blogging, it was back in the day when blogs

were popular. And this was very much just sharing what I was working on in any given day. And one of the things I think that sort of helped was that I got onto video quite early. And I think a lot of artists that. Got into online courses, did start sharing time lapses and things like that on Instagram and they were really popular and that's what I started doing. I can't even remember sort of setting up for the first time and recording just me in my studio, just working on a big canvas and sharing that. I shared very consistently on Instagram. It was a bit of an obsession and sometimes an unhealthy obsession. I got really involved in the local art community as well, so we had groups that were getting together and painting and sharing, so this was really my whole world at the time, and I was sharing a lot, and my Instagram grew quite quickly, I'm not really sure why that was, like a lot of people will ask me that, but I don't really know, I don't really have the answers, 

[00:53:18] Kellee Wynne: Consistency and good art. There you go. I'll you. the early years were so much easier. 

[00:53:25] Laura Horn: Yeah. its very different now, it's a lot more competitive now, and you need to have different types of content now, whereas you could just share that this is what I'm doing today, I'm really excited mm hmm. supply, like you could almost treat it like a diary, which is how I treated my Instagram when I started. So yeah, through sharing on Instagram, that's really where all the opportunities started to come in. And I was like gobsmacked, like mind blown when people would contact me and start asking, first of all, to buy my art, but also ask me, whether I would teach or run a workshop or things like that,

Mm hmm.

I had someone message me really early on, on Instagram and just say to me, like, don't wait until. All your ducks are in a row. This was like a really established, experienced artist, totally different style of art, he took the time to message me and say, I think you've got something really special. I think you should go for it basically. And that message really changed, the direction of where I was going, because I started to believe that something was possible and that I could possibly actually make a business.

So I want to say to people, you know, don't underestimate what a little message or a little bit of encouragement to someone can do. Because from that point on, I started going, Oh, you know what? I could actually teach a workshop. I could create an online class. And from there, I started to say, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, to all these things,. 


[00:54:53] Kellee Wynne: what we say matters and someone took their time to just be generous with you and give you that encouragement and what a difference it makes. I totally agree. If you wait till you're ready, you're never ready. I know that I spun my wheels for years before I finally took the plunge to do it.

[00:55:11] Laura Horn: I think one of the very first course teaching things I did was through life book with Tamara Laporte. And at that point I hadn't actually made an online class. But I had been making videos and things when she contacted me, I said, well, I haven't actually made an on class, online class, but she was really happy to let me come on board and that'd be my first online class.

So I did that and that was really well received, but we did not know what we were doing.

Um, cause taught videographer and photographer. So learned all those skills at the same time as I was learning how to paint. He was learning how to take photos.

In fact, we both discovered our hobbies around the same time. 

[00:55:56] Kellee Wynne: how beautifully aligned and the fact that you get to work well, okay, that's a whole nother issue working with your husband your business because, um, you've made it happen now for years. I don't know that I could have ever done the same, but you've had that help and support as far as figuring out a lot of the tech, the.

Like you said, the videography and the editing and all of that, and that's a surprisingly, it's what stops a lot of people from starting their business because they are scared of the tech. But what's really funny is, is. That part gets figured out so quickly, and then you realize it's just like you've opened up a whole nother can of worms.

It's Pandora's box once you start the business, right? Like, there's just still so different layers. That's wonderful, though. I don't think you're the only artist that has a business that works with their, their partner or their spouse. I know several others like Ivy Newport and, and such that you. Really have that camaraderie with their partner.

And I think that's really exciting. Really. I don't know It's special.

[00:57:06] Laura Horn: Yeah, it is special. And I don't think I could really work that way with anybody else. So for us, you know, we have these shared interests that are really in alignment. So it gives us that opportunity to spend time talking about things that we both love. We also both have. Other interests too. So really helps. So Richie is really into boxing. He's a professional boxing coach. He does all sorts other stuff. He does lots of sort of charity work and things like that. So he's got a whole other life and then I really like gardening and stuff.

So we, we kind of have those other things too, which I think is really important.

[00:57:47] Kellee Wynne: I agree. No matter, I think no matter whether you work together or not, that makes a big difference kind of have your own identity. And I think also, that's maybe 1 of the reasons why a lot of women rekindle the creativity after having kids, or even if they've started a corporate career and they suddenly realize they need it.

Something for themselves. It's important. And I think that's why we all come around at this point where we're like, Oh, I need that. I need something for myself. And you've been that pathway for a lot of people.

Thousands of students now.

[00:58:22] Laura Horn: I know it's crazy actually to think about that and my son, he's 10 and he often, he likes to remind me of what a number is like if you were to gather all those people into a room, he often says that to me and sometimes when something doesn't go so well and you've only got like a smaller number than what you normally would, he'll be the first one to say, but mom, mom, if you had all those people in your room listening to that or that message, that's a lot of people like, so he's, he's,

reminding me of that. It's a really good reminder when you are building an audience. And I think sometimes we think about the numbers too much rather than having the right audience or the audience that really connects with what you are doing.

[00:59:07] Kellee Wynne: Absolutely, each one of those numbers is a person and how you're connecting with them is going to make all the difference in the world to them and to your business. How did you decide, I would say, in air quotes, your audience, or did they just decide you and you realized they were?

[00:59:26] Laura Horn: Oh, that's such a good question. So when I started making art and then I developed my website, my main message was that I wanted to share the magic of mixed media. And the magic of creativity. That was my main sort of message. And then over the years, I kind of drifted a bit away from that.

And I started sharing more about building a business and things like that, especially on the podcast. And I realized that I had. Stopped maybe connecting as much with the people that initially followed me and took my first class. My first class that I made myself was called The Melting Pot and it was about mixed media. And a lot of people that take my classes, they are working, they have children, they are making art on weekends. They are doing exactly what I did when I started. They are carving out a little bit of space for themselves. over the past few years, I've realized, and I guess I've gone back full circle to the beginning.

And I've realized that really is my core audience. It is that person who wants to just feel special feeling of making something, using your hands doing something for yourself.

I think my audience brought me back because I had people contacting me saying I love your podcast, but I'm a complete beginner. And sometimes you use terms and things that I just don't even understand. I'd love it if you just explained what brushes you use or what supplies do I need to get started?

Or what's a good sketchbook that doesn't cost a lot of money and so people were yeah. Mm-Hmm. starting to realize that I was. out was certainly, there was certainly an audience for it, um, the business stuff,

I had of veered away from was my initial audience, the people that really supported me at the beginning. And so I realized that I needed to sort of go back to providing more content that was around building a healthy and happy art practice and catering for, uh, beginners as well as. Intermediate artists. And one thing that can happen as you teach and you've probably experienced this, is that some of your audience come along with you. So they know what supplies you use, they know about your processes and you kind of sometimes forget that there are people that are new coming in all the time that don't know all of that stuff. And so what I was finding was that in some of my classes that I made on down the track, I was assuming a lot.

I was assuming a lot of knowledge and, and. I wasn't explaining things as well as I did right at the beginning. And this is one of the advantages of when you start online classes, being not a complete beginner, but sort of, you've learned quite a bit, but you are still connected to what it's like to be a beginner. 

[01:02:29] Kellee Wynne: And I'm like you like I Went on this journey with how I teach art and like kind of took it to this place where I was Maybe focusing too much on the experienced artists But what I realize is that my audience that's brought me through and the people who are most interested in what I have to Offer are either beginners or they're Their lifetime hobbyists, and they have no interest in turning it into anything more than just a very pleasurable outlet.

But like you, I forgot that there's certain things that you just have to repeat often and not assume that you're. Students, your audience, your customer is going to know or understand. It's part of our job better teachers. 

[01:03:11] Laura Horn: A really good way of putting it actually, like understanding your customer journey and then being able to not just focus on one aspect, but be able to hit them at different of that journey.

[01:03:21] Kellee Wynne: Right, how to meet customers no matter where they're at and solve both the beginner's problem and the advanced?

artist problem. But I think we all come up with stumbling blocks on how to find inspiration. As as artists and and makers and mothers and wives and now business owners. We have a lot on our plate. How do you balance, like balance is a magical mystical word that we don't really know how to implement, but how do you juggle it all?

[01:03:53] Laura Horn: Would say in the last few months of this program, there have been some very long days right before the release date. So when we started the year-long course, we were getting everything ready, like a good two weeks before it was due to be released. then over time that that slipped away and we were working on classes like the day before they would come out. So there have been some long hours, and that's something that I've. One, two Get away from, uh, the previous year, not so much. We had a much better, quality of life in that way. So I guess it's recognizing when you've taken on too much and then figuring out what you can let go of in order to have a healthier life balance. And I'm at that stage right now because I have been doing quite a bit and quite a lot of different platforms. So I even started a TikTok account just because I thought, am I missing out on something? I'm not sure that I am.

Yeah, so I do feel like I need to. Pick some things and focus on them and maybe let a couple of things go in order to have a better work life balance it's taken me ages to get into reels, but I am sharing reels now on a regular basis on Instagram and Sharing them across other platforms, and I think I listened to something by I think it was Gary Vee that encouraged me to do All the things,

 I'm a pretty organized person. I will say that like I do do monthly planning. I think about what I'm going to share. I try and have kind of a theme for the month around what sort of stuff I'm going to share and relate that to the classes that I'm promoting. 

[01:05:42] Kellee Wynne: Clear messaging. makes all the difference in being able to communicate what's actually happening and what you want your customers to take action on. I hear what you're saying about being divided. I finally found somebody to help me though, my business a couple of years ago, and it's absolutely life changing because now I can put my energy on the things that only I can do, but it takes a lot of trust.

To hire somebody and say, okay, I'm handing over my inbox to you and know that it's going to go. Okay. Have you considered adding on to your team or do you feel like you'd rather keep it small with just you and Richie? 

[01:06:23] Laura Horn: Yeah. think about this a lot, so I've certainly considered adding on to the team, but then I feel like I would need to a person and have that responsibility. then I can't just sort of switch off for a few weeks here and there. So I don't know. I love the flexibility of. just being me and Richie, I love the fact that don't have to worry about the, about people because when you've got people working for you, they're dependent on you. I want to make sure that when I do take someone on, I'm in a really good place where I can provide that consistent work and support and Basically, yeah, be, be really good about it not flaky about it.

[01:07:11] Kellee Wynne: Well, uh, I love the heyday of your podcast, but it's great to know you're on YouTube. Is it Laura Horn Art on chance? Art Consistency and Branding, I will say. We can find For all of you listening and watching right now, of course, links will always be in show notes, but Laura Horn Art, anywhere you go, on your website, on your Instagram, on YouTube, so then everyone has a chance to connect with you and follow you on Instagram.

Of course, I'm pretty sure almost everyone in my audience knows who you are already. I love to end my podcast with one last question. What is your big audacious dream? I want to hear, like, sky's the limit, you wouldn't fail, money's option. What is it that you to do?

[01:08:05] Laura Horn: Okay, so my big dream is definitely travel, it involves travel, it involves going and visiting artists all over the world and helping them to create online classes and then putting that together. So I would love to be able to share classes from Sweden and different places, all sorts of artists that in interesting locations, but also artists that have maybe struggled to put an online course together. And I want to bring Richie cause he's got all those skills


and film artists interviews and little tutorials and put it together. So it would be like a art safari, paint safari. Horne

We would love to do something like that and, and somehow sort of bring what we've done to a lot of different people all over the world.

So we feel like that would

 that would be amazing. love that dream, I love it so much. Thank you Laura, I am so glad that we had a chance to finally catch up and talk it's super

you and to see you and I've really enjoyed watching your journey as well. I love listening to your podcast seeing what you're up to. So yeah, it's a, it's definitely a way love affair.

Oh, thank you so much. I love this. for you. I love it for us. And I can't wait to see where everything goes in the future.

Me too. Thanks Kelly.

 Hello, Bibi G. I am so excited to have you on the podcast and I'm just getting to know you face to face for the very first time. So it is a pleasure to meet you. 

[01:09:53] Bibby Gignilliat: Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here. 

[01:09:56] Kellee Wynne: And I know you have such an iconic style. Most people, once they find you, they follow you and they write your work is just so recognizable.

It's fun. It's interesting. And it's really full of life and detail. I know that this wasn't your first career though, when I was reading over your bio, when you were 10, you were fully intending to be A full time artist, but 11 year old you had your heart crushed by a teacher. I would love to start with how that made an impact on you and why it took you so long to get to where you're at now.

What that kind of hindrance of adults in our life stopping us as children. From pursuing our passion. 

[01:10:36] Bibby Gignilliat: Yeah. So I, when I was age 10, I would go every Saturday to this place close to my house where I would take art lessons and I got a lot of great feedback. In fact, I won an award and then I had a critical teacher when I got into seventh grade and became kind of a perfectionist because I guess that's the age where we develop perfectionism and I stopped painting and the whole time I did other things, I knew I had the artist in me, but it went into hibernation and you know, cause then you, you hear voices too. Like you have to make a living and you think you can't make a living as an artist, which is such a falsity. And so I became a computer programmer. I was a bicycle adventure tour leader. I worked at Williams Sonoma in marketing.

And ultimately I went to culinary school and became a full time cooking teacher and then ran a company for 20 years where we did hands on cooking parties and corporate team building events. But that whole time I knew in the back of my. Heart that I was an artist and I had this dream of having a gallery show.

And one day I was sitting at my desk and I realized I was a total fake doing some spiritual work at the time. And it said, take a courageous action step. And so I was trying to figure out like, if I sold my company, what would I do? So I did two things. I decided to take a six week, one night a week class with Nick Wilton, who's in the ICB building here.

And I went to the Academy of intuition medicine and. Got a vocational degree in healing, but back to the art class, I took the class with Nick Wilton and I had so many voices in my head and I just wasn't getting it. And I was literally the worst one in the class. But what I did have was I had determination.

So after the six week class, I decided to get a space in the ICB building. It was a hundred square feet in, I was sharing with a friend and. I felt like an imposter. I didn't even want to leave the studio because I didn't think I was an artist. But I realized later on that it wasn't that I wasn't an artist.

I just had to find my way within the art world. And I found collage through a teacher named Michael Cutlip and then Carl Hayward. And I realized this is my arena was collage and that's why I wasn't really understanding some of the principles of Nick and I've since gone back to Nick Wilton's classes.

After that I traveled with him quite a bit. I was able to understand what I wasn't getting before, but just of it. 

[01:12:57] Kellee Wynne: Sometimes it's what we don't know until we know enough to know what we need to know. 

[01:13:02] Bibby Gignilliat: Exactly, exactly. And I realized I had to paint with paper. 

[01:13:05] Kellee Wynne: I love that paint with paper, but you do use paint as well.

[01:13:09] Bibby Gignilliat: I do. And I've gotten into, you know, some pieces now are fully paint, but I do love the materials. And in fact, many times I'll be walking down the street and I'll find something on the street or on a building or whatever. And I'll tear off the scraps. And I realized. That one scrap can inspire a whole painting or one piece of metal that I find on the street or whatever can inspire a whole painting.

[01:13:28] Kellee Wynne: So, yes, that's just like how my heart beats as well. The materials, the scraps, the, the papers, the bits, like that leads to the inspiration. I think that's probably why I'm drawn to your work as well. I want to go back to that time that you were actually running a successful business. One of the things that

you said in your bio was that someone made a comment about how that business was run is like, it's really more instead of just cooking lessons. It's a lifestyle program that you were offering and that's something about that clicked in your head. And that's probably about when you were starting to make that transition.

Is that correct? 

[01:14:06] Bibby Gignilliat: Yeah. So I was, I was speaking on a panel for MIT graduates and they kept referencing my business as a lifestyle business. And I was like, what? I'm working like 80 hours a week. What are you talking about? Like it was sort of condescending in hindsight, looking at it. And then I thought like, okay, what kind of lifestyle do I want?

Right. And I want a lifestyle that has more balance and that kind of thing, but I also. Really want to feed my soul and initially my business was feeding my soul because I realized I love like launching businesses and growing it in the creativity of it. But then once it was a large business, I was in 4 cities at 1.

I had 60 employees. Oh, wow. Um, I realized like. All the joy had gone and it was really just operations and I don't want to do that. So that's why, you know, I delegated everything to my employees, which was one of the tenants of that wonderful book called the E myth. I delegated everything. I had nothing to do.

I would show up at work and I'd be pushing papers around. I felt like a total fake. But the beauty of it all is it, it gave me an incredible business background, which I have brought forth into my art practice. And a lot of ways that, that I'm different from other artists is I actually enjoy the business side.

[01:15:15] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. I was wondering about that connection because there's no way after 20 years of running a business like that, that it wouldn't transpire into everything else that you do. You learn. Communication skills, marketing skills, you learn customer satisfaction skills. You learn how to work with employees, you know, like that's a lot.

Do you have anyone now that that's working for you? Do you have you hired someone so that you can stay in that zone of genius a little bit more? 

[01:15:41] Bibby Gignilliat: Yeah, I love that zone of genius. What I say to so many people I love about being an artist is I'm just right now, the CEO of me. And I don't really want a lot of employees.

However, I want to be able to work on the business versus in the business, which is another tenant of the e myth book. So in order to do that, I have hired contractors. I have a guy that strings my paintings and wraps them when they're going out. I have a web designer. Who I talked to to update my website and she'll do like any kind of marketing promotion things and she helps me with my inside 2 shots and that kind of thing.

And then I've got an assistant that's coming today and she's going to help me set up for my class this weekend. And then she'll come and help me. I do back to back classes because it's more efficient and so she'll help me reset that up. And yesterday I had a painting that needed to go to the post office and she took it to the UPS store.

So I don't want to be doing some of that kind of stuff because I want to focus on the higher level stuff and creating. I've got to make the beans or whatever they say. I've got to make the bacon. There's a saying I can't remember what it is, but well, 

[01:16:48] Kellee Wynne: I will say that you have to make the art and no one else can do that.

So if other people can do the parts. That other people can do that leaves you to be able to do the part that only you can do which is actually that I've actually been really I had to have a super huge mindset shift for myself as well that, you know, I don't make as much art as I used to, but I do run on an online business and the part that I can do the part that I must do, I need to be in that space a lot more often than I think.

[01:17:15] Bibby Gignilliat: And you know, it's interesting because, one point I want to share with your listeners is that you have to learn to like business or if you don't like it, you need to hire someone or get an intern, you know, someone that wants to work for free maybe, or you know, something like someone that will work for really not a lot of money if it, if it's helpful or whatever.

It's just like, I don't really like to exercise, but I want to be fit and healthy. So I have to exercise if someone wants to be a successful artist. And I don't believe in the starving artist mentality. There is no such thing as a starving artist. I'm making more now as an artist than I did as a business owner.

Wow. And. Let me qualify that. I wasn't, I was not paying myself a lot as a business owner because I was keeping a lot of the money in the business for the rainy day. But that being said, I think you can be a really prosperous artist. You just have to do the business. And if you don't want to do it, hire someone to do it or find your daughter's best friend to help you wrap the art or whatever it is, if you don't want to do that.

You know what I mean? 

[01:18:25] Kellee Wynne: I understand. I think that it's important that we learn all aspects of the business though, before we pass it on. It would be super easy for someone to take advantage of you, but also just that's like that's ownership of what you've done and what you've created. The only way you're going to be able to make more money is to do the only thing that you can do, which is make more art, right? Or make art courses or do more coaching or consult with more people. Like the part that only you can do, you need to do more of that and let more people assist you with like just answering the emails even, right?

[01:18:54] Bibby Gignilliat: For sure. And, you know, there's virtual assistants that, are in other countries or in the United States that you can get, you know, all over the place, there's a lot of different ways to skin a cat. 

[01:19:05] Kellee Wynne: It's kind of like just shifting your mindset around the money that if I spend. So, say, say, I hire a virtual assistant in the United States and they're 20 to 30 an hour and I do love working with people in the United States, but I have hired people in the Philippines as well.

But in the United States, they understand my language, right? They not just like, they understand English, but they understand my cultural background because they are from the same area. So, hiring somebody that support me. For 20 to $30 an hour for 10 hours a month, that's only two to $300 a month. Hire someone to take certain aspects off your hands.

So if you do that, how much more money can you make by gaining those hours back? So once we have mindset shift about exactly getting the kind of support we need so that we can actually make more money, they'll pay for themselves. Mine have totally give. They pay for themselves. Right. Totally.

[01:19:56] Bibby Gignilliat: People always focus on the money, but you're absolutely right.

They pay for themselves because then it allows you to generate income by doing sales or by doing creating more work or whatever. You're best at. Yeah, exactly. 

[01:20:09] Kellee Wynne: Well, let's shift gears because I'm surprised that I like went down this route, but I want to go back. What year was it when you sold that business and switched to being an artist? I'm really curious about that timeline. 

[01:20:21] Bibby Gignilliat: Sure. So I took my 1st painting class with Nick Wilton in 2014, and I got a space in the ICB 100 square feet in 2014. And that's when I was feeling like an imposter.

And it was about 5 or 6 months later. I started coming out of the closet. You could say, and I did my 1st open studios and I sold 8 paintings in my 1st open studios. And that was. I started, I took the painting class in September and the following May, I did the open studios. And eventually like two years later, I got a studio within a suite of studios.

That was like 300, 400 square feet. And I was selling more and more. And then I felt more confident to let go of my business because I was scared because I wasn't fully making a living as an artist, but I eventually sold my business in 2017. And then in 2018, I moved out into this huge studio space, which is 1500 square feet.

And I have the front portion of the studio is sort of like a showroom. And I sell a lot of art myself through my showroom. And in the back part, I teach classes. And I knew in order to support this huge rent, I would have to teach. And I remember talking to Nick Wilton about it. And I said, Oh, I just don't feel ready.

And this is another thing. That he said, and also Marie Forleo and B school talks about it. It's like, start before you're ready. So I just was like, okay, I'm going to have to support myself in this space. If I did one class a month, I could pretty much cover my rent. So I started teaching in person and I practiced on two friends.

And actually, I did it twice. I 1st practice on a private client that wanted to come in and take a lesson. And so everything I taught him, I wrote down and then I created these detailed notes and then I tried it again on 2 friends and they gave me feedback and then I just went live and the 1st class sold out and they've pretty much sold out ever since then.

[01:22:10] Kellee Wynne: I love, I want to make note on that really important factor is that you practiced it first. And I love that something that we kind of miss in this industry, like, okay, well I have some followers on Instagram and I love making art. I'm just going to throw this thing out here without actually testing your ideas and your theories.

And I'm really encouraging all of my clients and my coaching program to practice and test at first, because we get so much feedback from that. I know some of the first art classes I was teaching, I'm like things that I just, Thought were a given and understood students were struggling with. And so you get a lot of a lot of feedback from that.

And then I also love the fact that you're like, mentioning that whole start before you're ready. Nick Wilton is a very well known in our industry. He does a CVP program and I can see how that can be an influence on almost so many people in our industry. I love that you were able to connect with him and.

Move into the space so quickly. I'm wondering if how that energy of being in an art. So where you're at at the ICB building it's I'm assuming is all artists filling up that space. 

[01:23:18] Bibby Gignilliat: Yeah, it's 180 artists and then there are a few businesses, but they're creative businesses, which are on the 1st floor because their retail spaces down there. 

[01:23:26] Kellee Wynne: That energy must really shift how you really see yourself as an artist.

And then also the exposure that you have in connecting. I know when I first started, when I came back into the art world, the first thing I did was go and join. Maryland Federation of the Arts because when you're surrounded by other people who do what you do, not only do you learn from them and get the encouragement, but then you make the connections for all the things that happen following that. I think that's a really cool leaping point for you, having your artwork that you can sell right out of your space. And how has it inspired you like being around all that energy? 

[01:24:00] Bibby Gignilliat: It's really important to be surrounded if you can by other artists. And I'll tell you a few stories. I've gotten probably 20 people into this building since I've come in and, you know, people that I'll meet at art classes and people that I'll meet out in the world. And I cannot even tell you almost every single one of them said, Oh, I don't need a studio because I've got something at home and I'm like, it's not that it's not right, it's just.

That they don't realize the incredible benefit of being inspired by being around other artists from several perspectives, you know, number one, we all help each other creatively. Like, if one of us is stuck, you know, you can call someone to come over and they'll have really good insights and feedback on why maybe a piece isn't working.

If you hear about a call for opportunity, we share it with each other. You know, I've set up a ton of educational programs within the building, like this year alone, we had. Interior designers come in and talk to us about what interior designers are looking for a gallerist panel that tell us what galleries are looking for.

[01:25:02] Kellee Wynne: So that leap before you're ready is actually putting you in a position to succeed. Much quicker. I think 

a lot 

about, you know, our Mindset and the energy we put out and how we connect with the world. And when we are in that zone, when we're in that alignment, I think it's only natural that more goodness is going to follow through. Of course, we have to work for it. It's not like you can just say, I'm going to be an artist and not show up for it.

But the more you show up, I think that's really what the, the key is, is like showing up and having Belief, even when you have imposter syndrome, which, how long does it really take for imposter syndrome to really go away? We get better and better, but there's always that next level, that next devil, right?

So, I mean, that's normal. And so sometimes it's like, we just have to suck it up and do it even when it's really hard. So teaching was, has been a really good idea for, and I know that you said you don't plan on doing it full time. It's just something to supplement what you're doing. And you did put out an online course, which I am grateful for because I learned a lot from it.

It's not full of fluff. It's like right and direct to the point. And I learned a lot of techniques and ideas that I had never even thought of before. When I take, especially because I'm now, you know, more advanced level, I don't need beginner intro, even though I think somebody who's completely new at art could take this and learn from it, but as someone who's more advanced, I loved it because it was giving me insight that I didn't actually know about working large and working in the style that you work and working abstract, and then even some of the materials you use, it was like, Oh, so for me.

 The price is very reasonable, but also just knowing that I can even get one big aha out of a course makes a huge difference to me, but I got several. Don't worry. I got several, but it was good, especially like just learning about the materials that you use and whatnot. It makes sense, though, that you went online in 2020, which many people did.

Yeah. And I'm glad things shifted to that. 

So you put all your focus and energy first into making art and supplementing it like once a month to teach so that you can make sure that the rent was covered. Really all your energy is in making art and selling art. How did you find, I'm going to make an assumption that that where you're at at the building that you're at helped, but how'd you find buyers so quickly and start finding collectors, interior designers and such to keep the work going?

[01:27:25] Bibby Gignilliat: Yeah. One of the things that I did early on, and I did take Marie Forleo's B School class, and she talks a lot about how people a lot of times focus on Instagram and Facebook to get people. And that's another stream that's really valuable. However, that is owned by Facebook.

Facebook owns Instagram and Facebook and they're going to change the algorithm, which we have been dealing with. Yeah. And right now, Instagram is just nothing what it used to be and I was an early adopter and I loved it and I didn't really have very good art at the time, so I didn't really get a lot of followers, but initially, but then I chose to, and this is a side note, I chose to do reels.

I'm always watching trends and I realized, Oh, they're competing with tick tock. And so about two or three years ago, whenever reels came out, I decided to start showing tips and tricks on reels and I would post a reel and I remember one of them got 675, 000 views. And from there, it would be very common that in a day I would get that day.

It's really slowed down and I'm not focusing so much on that because of the very reason of what Marie Forleo said. But what I also did early on was I had a big LinkedIn network and I also had a big friend group because I've lived in the Bay Area for many years.

I put them all into my database on MailChimp. Yeah. 

[01:28:48] Kellee Wynne: And you have to build your own list because the thing you can really 

[01:28:52] Bibby Gignilliat: rely on. 

Yeah, and I have now, and it's not that many, it's a lot compared to most artists, but not compared to like a Nick Wilton or a business. I have like 3, 400 emailers, and like, I'm adamant about it at every open studios when people come in and they're interested in either art or my classes, I have someone help me. I have a friend help me and that's easy. People can get a friend to help and, um. And I put her on a little commission. And so she helps me sell at open studios. And then she helps me gather names in my database. 

[01:29:24] Kellee Wynne: I wanted to just really focus because I knew having you come on would help us kind of shift the mindset to how we can actually make a good income just from selling our art. What are some bits of advice you can give our listeners about moving forward in that direction? 

[01:29:40] Bibby Gignilliat: Well, again, I have to say, like, there's times when I make it makes me uncomfortable, but you just have to do it.

And there's a whole mindset that selling art is a bad thing. I had to work in this building to get over, you know, for people to get over that mindset. It's not a bad thing. We need to make a living and there's nothing to be ashamed about, about selling art. So that would be one of the it. The mindset.

[01:30:03] Kellee Wynne: Bravo. Yes. This is one of the hardest things that, that for some reason we think it's shameful to ask for money for the thing that we create. 

[01:30:12] Bibby Gignilliat: Totally. Right. Yeah. And so figuring out what the next thing is. I'm kind of trying to figure that out right now.

What is the next thing? 

[01:30:19] Kellee Wynne: That's a good question because. The old way is still a good way, which like you said is networking, getting to know people, getting them on your email list. I've had other ideas in the past when I was really focused on selling my work, which in all honesty, I'm working towards doing it again because I had to let a few things go to make space to get back into the like real artist mode. Also, I noticed. Here's another little pointer, and maybe we can discuss this a little. I looked at the art that you have on your site, and it's not cheap art, which is great.

It's still affordable in my opinion, because I don't think I saw things that were priced over 10, 000. But I see artists sell their work for so little, sometimes a 48 by 48, and they're selling it for 600. And I'm like, what's going on here? That hardly covers your time and your materials. So, can we talk a little bit about how pricing it appropriately and maybe a little bit higher actually can help you with your reputation.

[01:31:14] Bibby Gignilliat: Yeah, I think, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think people might think like, well, what's wrong with the art if it's priced too little? I mean, it's really valuing yourself and what you're providing. And so you can always offer a discount if you want, although Marie Forleo makes a really good point on that too, where she says you can always add value, but don't discount.

I forgot to mention that I have a mailing list of like 500 people and anytime someone buys a painting for me, I get their address, even if they're out of state and I mail to them every open studios and you know, if someone's moved, I get the name.

Updated that way. And I have galleries, a few galleries in the area on that list. And I also have an interior, I have a list of a hundred interior designers. So I get, I mail to them for every open studios. 

And so what happens is if someone comes in, you know, 1 of the key things about open studios that. People have to realize is the sales cycle is really long or can be really long. You'll get the occasional person that will come in and they'll be like, I want that painting and that's like 1 in 20 sales or maybe 1 in 50 sales where they just come in and they're like, I'll take that painting that happened to me a couple of times, but usually someone wants to measure and go home and see if it's going to work and.

What I often do is I'll offer for them to take a picture of their in home setting and they send it to me and then I'll have my designer Photoshop the painting into their home. So that's 1 thing I do to really help me close the sale. The other thing I'll do is. I just started doing this is I, I love lug.

I don't know if you guys have lug out there L U G G, but it's the Uber of delivery and these guys really nice t shirts and, and they'll take the painting to the house and they'll drop it off. And I pay for it to be delivered to the house. And if they decide they don't want it, they decide, you know, it's out on approval and they decide no it's not working, they pay for it to come back to me.

That's how I worked it out. So once it gets in the home and in general, it is more likely to sell. And that's, that's even better than the Photoshop idea of Photoshopping it in. 

So I give them this brochure to take home. And then they're able to look at it at their convenience and or if just someone seems real interested, but maybe they don't have a need right then and there. You don't know, like maybe they know somebody or tier designer or gallery or whatever. So I give this to them and I print up about 50 of them for every open studios.

And I usually give out almost all copies. 

[01:33:49] Kellee Wynne: That's something that they can Come across in another month and go, oh, yeah, I really want to be from this artist. And yeah, that's it's a good like physical in your hands. Like, what's old is new again. Like, I don't know. Maybe we need to take out magazine ads. I don't.


[01:34:04] Bibby Gignilliat: And they're, they're not going to throw this out because it's a nice thick brochure. So I doubt that they would throw this out. And I do a new 1 every open studio so that it has all my new work in it. I think that in all honesty, that art is a spiritual practice and it's a way to explore your relationship with yourself.

And, you know, I've had to work through a lot of those things and I'm still working through them. It's self. esteem, self worth, self love, all of those things. And it's a practice and I have a very deep spiritual practice that as I grow as a person, my art, it's reflected in my art. So I believe they're so intertwined and the more you can work on your yourself, the more it will be reflected in your art sales and your abundant outlook.

[01:34:53] Kellee Wynne: I think that you really tapped into something that is important and something I believe in, too, because I've gone through that phase as a business owner. Who am I to do this? Who am I to teach this? Who am I to coach? Who am I to show up and tell other people, you know, they can run a business? You know, is this even what I'm supposed to do?

But You're right in the sense that when you start honing in on your spiritual practice, whatever it might be, for me, it's not connected to any religion, but when you start realizing that that creativity is coming through you, it's meant to be, then you get to a point where you're like, I'm denying other people the joy of whatever the divine is in this world if I'm not putting it out there.

Right? I'm, I'm denying that light. Completely. So once that clicks, that it's not so much about me, but it is collective energy and love and spirit of us all. It shifts how you feel about everything. 

[01:35:50] Bibby Gignilliat: Totally. . 

[01:35:51] Kellee Wynne: I mean, we can't deny that there is some sort of connection between us is and so when we're in that right space, and then letting go of some of those imposter syndromes and fears that keep us from being able to just show up as 100 percent authentically us. And I know that it's a always a lifetime work in progress. I have no doubt. This isn't something we can just snap our fingers and. Be ready for, you know, that big, huge shift, but once you get into that flow, I can see it's working for you because you're selling paintings by the half dozen.

So obviously connects there. And I really do believe there's a connection to how we show up, how we feel. What our energy is to the success that we have. 

And 1 of the reasons I wanted you on, because I do talk oftentimes to other types of business business owners. We really wanted people to hear. That is possible to be successful just by painting with passion the way you do. 

[01:36:48] Bibby Gignilliat: I just want to make one last comment that Julia Cameron says in her book, The Artist's Way, if you really want to know what you should do in life, look at what you loved as a child.

And I loved painting, obviously, but I also kind of loved entrepreneurism. I was having Kool Aid stands and golf ball stands and shoveling businesses and candle bit businesses, all these things. 

[01:37:08] Kellee Wynne: You and I both, I loved entrepreneurship. I would be taking chocolates and selling it to my friends at school.

[01:37:15] Bibby Gignilliat: Yeah. Love it. Yeah. So she's really right on in that. And I, I say that in my classes a lot and people have this real connection and they're like, Oh my God, I loved this. And then my mother told me my sister could only be the artistic one or whatever. So anyway. Yeah. 

[01:37:31] Kellee Wynne: Wonderful. Thank you so much. So much for being on the podcast.

It was really fun to get to know you and I have no doubt that everyone will feel extraordinarily inspired after this. Oh, thank you so 

[01:37:42] Bibby Gignilliat: much. I'm really grateful to be here. Thank you. Okay. Bye

 betty once was on my virtual art summit 2020, our very first one. And since then, I just see you all over the world doing fun things, making art courses, making gorgeous art. So welcome to the podcast. 

[01:38:15] Betty Franks: Thank you, Kellee.

Super happy to be here. 

[01:38:18] Kellee Wynne: Yay! So, where are you right now? You're in California. 

[01:38:21] Betty Franks: I am, I'm in San Jose, California. However, I've got the suitcase out, getting ready to pack it, heading over to Croatia and I'll be there for five weeks, and then I'll be back. 

[01:38:30] Kellee Wynne: I'm gonna tell you my husband and I put Croatia on the very top of our must It's just such a gorgeous country.

So you were, your family's from Croatia. Were you born and raised in Croatia? 

[01:38:42] Betty Franks: My parents are from Croatia. They're from the same village. And so, which is fantastic. And you don't realize this until you get older, but both sides of the family are in one place. Which is so fantastic, because when you go to visit, you don't have to go to different parts of the country or different parts of the world.

They're all right there. And the majority of my family, extended family is there. Not too many of them came to the States. But I was born, me and my brother and sister were born in Toronto, Canada. And when I was seven years old, we moved to San Jose. So I grew up in San Jose. Then in my late twenties, I moved to Southern California for work, met my husband at that time, and we moved up to Seattle.

And so I had been away from San Jose for about 26 years. And when I came back in 2016, I was just, first of all, sunshine every day and, and just being close to family and friends again, you know, I missed my community. We have a strong Croatian community here. And so it just felt so good to be back with the people that I grew up with and, especially my brother and sister.

[01:39:44] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, so they're there, your family's there, your parents moved back to Croatia there? 

[01:39:48] Betty Franks: Yeah, so, so about 25 years ago they retired and they, my dad built a house out there, he was a builder, and they were traveling back and forth. But by the time I moved here, they only came back a couple of more times. At that point, my mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, it became a lot more difficult to travel back and forth.

And so they Mostly my dad made the decision that they would not be coming back anymore. And so we travel to go and see them. Like my sister just returned a couple of weeks ago. I'm headed out that way. My brother will go in the fall. I'll go back again later this year. And so we're trying to help my dad out as much as possible as my mom's getting, a lot worse.

[01:40:26] Kellee Wynne: I just want to make a point of saying, it's the life that you've built now that provides you that opportunity to be able to travel and spend several weeks, if not months at back at home, helping out.

I mean, if anything, I would say that's one of my biggest motivators in running my own business is that kind of freedom choice. That's an impact that I can make, if we have, you know, regular nine to five type got to answer to the, to the office, we don't have that ability.

[01:40:54] Betty Franks: And so two weeks off a year, um, you know, restricted to that kind of schedule. You know, I count my blessings. Every day. I am grateful every day for this life that I have for the ability to create art to be able to put art into the world and to be able to make a living doing it.

 It's like, I pinched myself constants. Like I can't believe that, after the career that I had, which was so tied to corporate, that I could venture off on my own and be able to build up my own business and, and have that flexibility and have that freedom. And that's why I end up going, two to three times a year.

 Because I have that flexibility to be able to do that and yeah, so grateful. 

[01:41:31] Kellee Wynne: So amazing. So now begs the question, how did you get from corporate into this art world? 

[01:41:38] Betty Franks: Well, yeah, it's certainly not a place that I thought it was going to be. I was at a point in my career where I was so burnt out, so stressed out, my entire body hurt.

Like I had this constant knife in my shoulder and, at the time, you know, I thought that was kind of normal. It wasn't normal at all. There was nothing normal about it, but I accepted it for so many years of feeling that stress. And so I got to the point where I just, I, I had to leave. So I, you know, gave him a one month notice and I can't tell you how fantastic it was when I was done.

 I could feel like the tension shifting away from my body. And I was like, wow, this is what it's like to live a life. not under constant stress and pressure. And so during that time, I was kind of doing some, um, making cards, on the weekends, getting into mixed media. You know, I fell madly in love with mixed media.

And so I was kind of doing that, and because I had more free time, because I was working with my husband at the time, who had a, house painting career, and so I was helping him in that business. I was helping with the marketing. I was helping with painting as well. So I was doing a little bit of everything, but I had almost all my afternoons off.

So I wasn't working that full time. So afternoons, I got to go to my little studio and I got to create, and that just started building up, and I started spending more and more time creating. And I started posting on Facebook, and I started posting on Instagram, not with the intention to sell, but just, hey, this is what I'm working on, just sharing the stuff, and slowly, pieces started to resonate with folks, and they started buying my art.

And, I don't think it was until I moved back to San Jose. In 2016, 2017 is where I started taking, I said, okay, well, I do need to make some money. And so I started getting a bit more serious about, what does that look like? What does that mean? What steps do I need to take? What do I need to learn to do?

[01:43:35] Kellee Wynne: So then what are those steps? I'm going to, I'm going to just put you right on the spot. Yeah. You developed your voice first. You became proficient first, which is always something that I try to remind people. It's like, if you're just learning how to make art, continue in that process until it becomes like.

Second nature to you. And the only way that that's going to happen is to make more art, make art, make more art, make more art again. So we'll get to that point where it's and of course art is always ever flowing and changing and evolving To where it is like it's going to change over time But when once you know those materials when that brush is in your hand, it's like I know what to do with it It feels natural then it's like and people are asking you to buy your work Then it's like, what's the next step to take?

[01:44:16] Betty Franks: Yeah, definitely. You want to make good art. And in 2017, I had not found my style yet. I was like at the cusp of it and I didn't know it. It wasn't until 2018 when I went to Croatia in May to visit my parents to stay with them. And in May, flowers are in bloom all over the island. And my mom loves flowers.

She loves to pick flowers. She loves making those little bouquets of flowers. And we had small bouquets of flowers. All over the house. And I just remember I had all my art supplies and I was working on paper and I remember saying to myself, Betty, you're on vacation. Just relax and just just create no pressure, no nothing.

And before I knew it, I was creating these pieces that were inspired by these fields of flowers. We were seen by these bouquets of flowers that we were picking and I didn't recognize it immediately, but I recognize that something was shifting in me and that shift. Continued when I returned and I was able to stay with it and I was just creating piece after piece and a lot of it was on paper.

Love working on paper. You know that that it's not precious. If it doesn't work, who cares? It's just a piece of paper. I can throw it out versus a canvas where, you know, it's like, oh, wow, I just spent all this money on this canvas. I better do something great, right? Right. That's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure.

And so by, by working on paper, which was my first love anyway, cause when I was doing mixed media work, it was all on paper. And so I just found that I really was able to stay loose and relax. And I was able to continue creating the way I was creating that May in Croatia. And as I continue to do that, That style really solidified once folks started seeing that and actually those first few pieces I made in Croatia, I just posted them.

They all sold. All the ones that I created that month sold immediately. 

[01:46:04] Kellee Wynne: And so you're just creating for the sake of creating that the best work is going to come. 

[01:46:11] Betty Franks: Absolutely. I was creating from my heart. I want to say that all these years people kept saying, you got to create from your heart. You got to create within.

And I didn't know what that meant until I got there. And without forcing it, I was able to do it. I was able to find that connection to something that meant a lot to me, not just those flowers, but that time, you know, spending with my parents in Croatia, that, that was my connection as well. So yeah. Finding your style I think is key, but I was working on administrative stuff during that period of time. I certainly already had a website, but it wasn't a fantastic website. I was learning how to ship art because I was selling art. So I was, up this information, Googling it, asking other artists how they do it. So a lot of learning.

And I think there's one thing that I'm so passionate about creating art and running an art business that I love looking up information. I love figuring things out. I love, you know, trying to find the best way to do something the best way, meaning the best way for me, for me and my art, because it's going to be different for everyone.

And you just got to try different things and figure out what's going to work best for you. , my goal is to get off of social media, and I'm trying to figure out how to do that because as much as I love it, I also find it stressful. So I'm trying to figure out, you know, what else can I do?

Can I just be on there to love it and not have to be stressed about trying to sell my art there? So I'm working on, you know, trying to figure some of those things out. 

[01:47:37] Kellee Wynne: We'll have to unpack that thought, but I want to hear more of how you like you transitioned into regularly selling your work. 

[01:47:44] Betty Franks: Yeah. So building an email list was really key for me.

So what I was doing early on when I was just starting out is I was in San Jose. I was going to, I was at local art festivals. So that was one way for me to collect email addresses. I would have an original piece of art and I would say. Join my email list to get in on the drawing. So I started building it slowly that way.

I was doing the same on social media. Once a month, I would say anyone who signs up this month is in the drawing for this free, you know, original piece of artwork on paper, because that was easy for me to ship worldwide. And I have shipped everywhere because, you know, I wasn't saying, you know, only open to us residents or whatever.

So paper was the best way to do that. So I slowly started building up my email list. And then at some point, a few years ago, Because whenever I went to Croatia and I, and I created these small pieces like a nine by twelves or even five by sevens, those were selling so fast, you know, as I posted them, people were interested.

And so I was doing a lot of one off shipping and I thought, well, there's gotta be a better way to do this. So I decided at some point that I would say, okay, I'm creating these pieces in Croatia, they're available to my email list, join my email list and you'll be notified when they're ready and you'll have first dibs.

 So if you on occasion need to pay for advertising, just know that that's all businesses have a budget for marketing. 

[01:49:05] Kellee Wynne: Right? So then that comes to the point where I want people who are listening right now who are starting or running a business to think of it like a real business.

And a real business means we spend money to grow our business because if we're not growing, then we have an expensive hobby. A very expensive hobby. And that's not what I want. When we're playing business, it's very different than actually being the CEO boss of our business. I have a lot of expenses in the business that make it so worth running because then I get the time back to do the things that only I can do. Make the art, record the podcasts, show up online. Right. So those are the parts that we absolutely must be focusing on. So the marketing and we were just talking about before I hit record is you've been working on Facebook ads.

[01:49:54] Betty Franks: I have, I have been 

[01:49:55] Kellee Wynne: helping you grow, but let's go back to why are you working on Facebook ads and what are you selling? 

[01:50:00] Betty Franks: You know, during the pandemic, it's interesting because I really didn't take advantage of the pandemic. I took advantage of that downtime, but that was a good time for me to be doing more videos on YouTube. I think I would have hit 100, 000 had I really focused 2020 and 2021 on videos, but I didn't. I did do some paint with Betty sessions where these were live sessions for two hours. And those were fantastic. I mean, I had so many people join in and we had so much fun creating together. And what I did was I ended up taking one of those live sessions and I turned it into a workshop you can purchase because a lot of folks didn't join me didn't know about it or couldn't join for whatever reason.

And so I had been selling that workshop for several years up until last November, I had finally had a sale because I was going to discontinue it. So I was running it for what, two years. That did over 40, 000 in sales for me to taking a recording from a workshop that I taught. So not only did I get the benefit of the income from doing that live workshop, but then I got the benefit of just taking that recording, cleaning up the beginning and the end a little bit and having it available for folks and people loved that.

And then I thought, well, people love that. I'm going to sit down. I'm going to make a really good one. Where I really slow down and I talk them through my entire process. We do exercises together So that we can build a foundation But not only that one thing that I kept hearing people say to me is they loved Hearing my thought process of why I do what I do. So I am talking out loud and explaining myself and people are finding so much value in, in that whole thought process. You know, why does an artist do that?

What's the reasoning behind that? That's going to help propel them forward in their own career, their own art journey in questioning things and talking through things, experimenting and exploring and playing. I talk about all those things in my online workshop. 

[01:51:58] Kellee Wynne: Yeah and that's like what I was so desperate for when I came back to art.

If I could be a fly on the wall and understand it, it would make all the difference in the world. So you probably have all those thousands of followers on YouTube and Instagram and on your list that are like, finally, I get to see what the thought process is. And that's probably the most valuable thing.

Why do colors work the way they do? Why would you create the composition the way that you're creating it? Why would you cover up something that looks perfectly fine from the outside?

We have to, as business women, business people, as artists kind of balance between what we're going to share publicly and then what we're going to ask somebody to invest in.

And I do believe that when people invest their money in something, they're actually going to get better results because they are, mentally and financially invested. In the process. 

So where do you see the future for you with teaching? I know you're going to keep making art and selling art. That's a given. And I'm so glad for you for that. But where do you see the future with teaching for you? Are you going to create more courses? Yes! 

[01:53:02] Betty Franks: Yes to all of the above. The course I have now is my core offering. It's the fundamentals. You know, really spelling out, the way that I like to create and giving you, techniques and processes that you can incorporate into your own artwork.

I teach in person workshops. I've been doing that for years. Like I mentioned I would love to teach overseas.

I would love to teach in Croatia. I get a lot of requests for that Right now as you know, you know, my parents are my priority right now. So we'll see how that goes. And then in terms of online, because not everybody can come to my workshops, I am going to be creating another online workshop. I haven't decided exactly the subject. 

[01:53:37] Kellee Wynne: I love it. So then we know that more is coming from you. 

[01:53:40] Betty Franks: Yes. Yes, definitely. 

[01:53:42] Kellee Wynne: All right. I love to end my podcast with the same question.

What is your big audacious dream? 

[01:53:49] Betty Franks: Ooh. Okay. 

[01:53:51] Kellee Wynne: There's no, nothing's holding you back. 

[01:53:53] Betty Franks: Yeah. Everything is possible. I have a couple of them that have been bouncing around in my head for a while.

And, and I'm a true believer that what you put out into the universe comes back. And so I'm constantly putting this out there. I'm talking about it. I'm looking at pictures, I'm doing all that stuff. One of them is I want to live in a tiny house and I want to have a large piece of property.

 I want a tiny home and I want a second tiny home that is my studio. And then I want several more for my brother and sister and family to come visit. And then I want one that's a community house where there's a big kitchen and we can sit and dine together. One big place for everyone to make. Yes. Right. Yeah. I would just, I would love that. And for family to be there. So, so that's one of them. And then the other one is, and I'm going to get a sampling of this in September, but it is to travel around in an RV. And paint. I have not seen a lot of the country.

When I was young, in my 20s, I did travel to a lot of cities, as part of my job. But that was, you know, business travel. You didn't really, you didn't get to see it all that well. So, I would love to go and get a really small RV and just travel the country and just, No, no time limit.

No, you know, don't have to be anywhere specific at any time. I know that there's this thing called chasing 70. So chasing 70 degrees would be ideal for me because that's like the perfect temperature. 

[01:55:19] Kellee Wynne: Yes, I am so excited for you. I'm so glad that we got to connect. And I mean, what an honor to just sit and chat with you, this afternoon. Thank you.

[01:55:30] Betty Franks: Thanks, Kellee. It was so much fun chatting with you and I look forward to doing it again sometime. 

[01:55:35] Kellee Wynne: Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you.

 Okay, I have Louise on and I'm excited about it because we've only really been able To connect one other time when we were doing a virtual art summit in 2021 together. 

[01:56:02] Louise Fletcher: Oh, that's right. Yes, first time seeing each other face to face, I think. I love it. 

[01:56:06] Kellee Wynne: I'm so excited to get to know you better this way because we have a lot in common.

And then we also have different paths that we've been kind of side by side on the road to business, entrepreneurship, artist, extraordinaire, whatever it is that we're trying to accomplish every year. We're just making the next step. 

[01:56:24] Louise Fletcher: Right. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And who knows what we're gonna be next year?

 I was recently, I'm looking at the moment at an outside studio space. This does have a point. And one of the things is how long of a lease do I want? And part of my brain was going, well, if I don't get tied in for this long, they may want to throw me out or they may want to, I need the security of knowing.

And then I thought back five years ago when I. became serious about my art, how much things have changed since then. I can't know what I'm going to want five years from now. 

So none of what I'm doing now was envisaged five years ago. I couldn't have imagined it. And so I can only assume that what I'll be doing in five years, if I'm lucky enough to still be healthy enough, will be different again. 

[01:57:11] Kellee Wynne: So I imagine it's going to be different because how many things have happened in the last five years that we couldn't have even anticipated?

Yeah. Right. And then on top of that, our own dreams and goals, our family situations change, our own personal growth happens. I mean, I don't know about you, but being a business owner has grown me in ways that nothing else has grown me before, like really stretched the capacity of who I am, how I show up, what I believe in myself, what I know and what I have to teach myself all the time just to grow the business, you know, like that's just in and of itself over the last five, six years is just.

radically shift who I am. How do you feel about business and how it's impacted you as a person? 

[01:57:53] Louise Fletcher: Yeah, I mean, I've run my own business since 2003, but it wasn't always about art, so I've not worked. I'm totally unemployable now. If I had to go for a job, I'd be useless. It's 20 years since I worked for someone else who told me what to do.

So in that 20 years, yes, the things I have had to learn and the things that have changed, you know, I had to learn Google, just on the practical level, I had to learn Google AdWords, I had to learn SEO and none of that I use now because things have then social media came on. I learned blogging on type pad and then blogging moved on to WordPress.

And then I stopped blogging and moved on to social media and now make YouTube videos. And so technologically and, and business wise. I've had to learn a lot, but also, yes, as a person, if I think about the changes, because as an employee, I was fairly senior towards the end of my career, but still there's a boss, there's still someone who sets the agenda and that's what you're working towards.

And, and then to be suddenly on your own. And okay, it's all up to me now. I remember in our first business, which I ran with my husband at the time, we got a website made and then we went, Oh, okay, now what? We've got a website, but no one knows where it is. And we had to start learning all of that. And so it's just been a constant journey of learning.

And, you know, now I'm bored with that. So what can I do instead? The constant adaptation and now we're moving into AI. And whatever that's going to bring, you know, and there'll be more changes, more adaptation, and you don't have the luxury, which you do as a nine to five employee of going, well, someone else will worry about that.

I'm just coming into my job until someone tells me I'm laid off. I'll be here until then, pushing papers around and doing whatever I used to do when I first had a job. That's not the luxury. You've got to be thinking, okay, what am I going to do and how am I going to make it work? 

[01:59:47] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. You have to continually be on the top of.

New trends and education and clocking in for me was always challenging because I'm a free spirit and many artists are many, there are certain types of personalities that do really well in a work environment versus others who were like, like you said, unemployable at this point. I'm not sure I could handle having a boss tell me what to do, although I hired a manager to tell me what to do, but that's a different kind of story.

[02:00:12] Louise Fletcher: I have somebody who tells me what to do in my own business and I'm very grateful for her telling me what to do. 

[02:00:18] Kellee Wynne: Yes, but that's very different. Than working for somebody else. And I know the advantages, especially here from my, my sons who are like, I just wanna clock in, clock out, and go home and not have to think about work.

But as an entrepreneur or business owner, even an artist, you never really stop thinking about what you do. 

[02:00:36] Louise Fletcher: No, and I'm not the archetypal artist person in that. I was always hardworking, not that artists aren't hardworking, but I was also always dutiful. So whatever job I had, I worked really hard at it, tried to please my boss, real people pleaser, you know, always did exactly, always did my best and over and above and, and tried to impress everyone.

I spent so much time working on pointless things just to try and impress somebody who I was working for or to, you know, do the job well or whatever. So I was always quite structured and organized as an employee, but by the time I stopped being an employee, so I would have been age 40, right? Yeah. I was age 40 when I left my last job.

I was getting burnt out from that because the truth is I'm probably not that. Inside, you know, I'm probably more like you inside, but being a dutiful good girl doing all the things I was supposed to do, I didn't even know that I was supposed to be more free spirited. So I was getting to the point of total burnout, boredom, anger, frustration, you know, ill health, because it wasn't for me that life, but I had always thought I remember my.

My ultimate ambition when I was in college, cause art did not seem like a possibility in my upbringing, in my family, that just wasn't what you did. My thought was big corner office in a company, executive, some kind of executive. And that is exactly what I ended up with. And at one point in Manhattan, two windows, you know, overlooking that skyline of Manhattan, everything I thought would make me happy.

It didn't because it was a really boring job. I worked for a company that sold water meters to apartment buildings and I was the human resources director. It was not exciting work. Um, so everything I thought I wanted, I got to and went, Hmm. And the thing I realized is. And not to be offensive to anyone I ever worked with, but I think this is just true of humans.

I got to the top of the company and realized nobody knows what they're doing. Like, I thought these people were the really clever people, but actually they're just stupid as well. They're like me. They don't know what they're doing either. So the whole, all my ambition for that world. When, and I had to make new ambitions and so having my own business was for a while interesting, but the business I was in, I was helping people find jobs based on my prior HR experience.

So again, nothing creative. I never. allowed that part of myself to really be anything, come out as anything other than a hobby, occasional hobby, because I thought that you can't make money as an artist. It's such a cliche, but it's true. How can you? It's impossible. Yeah. 

[02:03:26] Kellee Wynne: I mean, we see that different now and I think it's helpful with social media and the way we're globally connected that we can see success now more easily than we did, you know, all the way up even until the 20 teens where it was like still this like fantasy job.

You think that you're going to get some loft in New York and that's the only way you're going to make it as an artist and now we know there are so many different paths. 

Where is the journey to finding yourself as an artist? I know I've heard a lot about, like, how you would draw and do other things, but when was it that you actually took the plunge into? Painting 

[02:03:59] Louise Fletcher: I was trying to paint so I started drawing yet and then within a few years.

I was trying watercolors under the Ridiculous idea that would be easier than acrylics. That's what I thought 

[02:04:12] Kellee Wynne: All of you listening watercolor is not easier than acrylic 

[02:04:16] Louise Fletcher: no And that is why my results were always And why I was never happy. So I flitted around, it was very much, even when we returned home, I was still doing the, the helping people find jobs business, which was mainly American clients, but I just did it from here.

 So it was a part time thing in the evenings I was, and weekends I was exploring painting. I went to acrylics when I. Took a class, I was doing life drawing classes in the evenings locally, which I really loved. And I started painting watercolors there. And then I went on a weekend course with a local artist.

Her name is Leslie Birch, B I R C H. And she's all over Instagram and she's a really lovely abstract landscape artist. And she did this two day workshop in a church hall where she brought a load of materials, a load of paper, gave us everything to use. And then the two days was just playing. With exercises that she set, but oh my God, all of a sudden it just lit light bulbs in my head that, Oh, like all those effects people get in their paintings.

They're not planning it all and then executing it. They're doing this. They're messing about with materials and making discoveries. I can do that. Like I thought you had to have some kind of God given talent, which I wasn't given. 

It's not something that's locked to me. It's simply experimenting, playing and learning as you go. And there's no right and there's no wrong and there's no barriers and anyone can do it. And once I was off and running, I just discovered, and I think you're like this, I discovered that I am one of those people who has to say what I've just learned. Like if I've learned something, I have to tell you about it and I enjoy telling you about it and I enjoy seeing your face change the way mine did when I learned it and I want to now bring it to you.

And so initially. I just began helping people who were struggling if I came across them online, I'd say, no, no, this is what he's saying. And I'd kind of explain it in my own way or, or this is the exercise, try this. And I started to make little YouTube videos to help people that come across.

So here's, this is what I mean. And that is just how my teaching started because I began to find my. My own way, what I wanted to teach people and my own way of expressing these things, which all art teachers are basically teaching the same things, but I found my own way into it. And I found that as much as painting, I love teaching.

So I never knew I had, when we talk about business changing us, I didn't know I was good at teaching. I had never taught anyone anything. 

[02:06:57] Kellee Wynne: Now you have this huge. Following a huge business. I don't know how many members are in your, um, 

[02:07:04] Louise Fletcher: art. We have 4, 000 people at the moment. 

[02:07:07] Kellee Wynne: That's really incredible. I mean, that's how many people lives are changing on a regular basis.

Plus your, your joy program and. I love that once that level was unlocked in your brain, it was like full force flooded in, you know, that's not that long of a period. Like I've been the serial entrepreneur, creative artists often on through my whole life, but I like you, it wasn't until like 2012 that I really started getting into to art.

And then. Developed it more and more. And then really, where is that timeline? It was like 2019 when you started really teaching, right? 

[02:07:43] Louise Fletcher: Yeah, yeah, I think I did. I think I did a beta version of my course in 2018 where I literally invented it because somebody One person kept saying to me, when you teach something, I'm joining, whatever it is, just I'm joining and she kind of inspired me to start thinking, could I, could I teach something?

And, I did some personal development work with a coach who I'll mention because she's amazing. Her name is Georgina Noel, N O E L. You can find her on Instagram or, or she has a website. And I'd done some coaching with her at a retreat and she helped unlock some things. She's a life coach. She's a spiritual practitioner.

She's a guru. You can't put her into a box, but what she is, is very good at releasing you from the beliefs that are holding you back. And I remember saying to her, well, I can't teach people. If I'm going to create classes, I'll have to find artists to teach it.

She was like, do you know, I was like, yes, because I haven't got anything to teach. And so we did work around some of my limiting beliefs and I've told this story many times, but the idea for my course literally dropped in my head one day when I was walking my dog and it came as if it were being downloaded from, from the internet.

I was like, somebody must've invented this before because it's all organized in my brain. Like, and it's got a title, like the title, find your joy, the subjects, which over the years have. Changed and evolved, but this first version of it and I didn't have anything with me, no pen, no phone, nothing. I was like, I can't write this down.

I hope I remember it when I get back and I got back home and said to my husband and a friend who was here. Oh, I'm gonna, I think I'm going to teach a course and they were like. All right, don't get too disappointed if people don't join up. You know what? My 

[02:09:30] Kellee Wynne: favorite. Don't, 

[02:09:31] Louise Fletcher: don't, don't get your hopes 

[02:09:33] Kellee Wynne: up. Oh, and it's like, you guys, whatever, you don't have any idea.


[02:09:40] Louise Fletcher: understand. And you know what? I had that feeling like you don't understand this is going to work. I know it is. And I had a Facebook following by that point of, I don't know how many, it was nowhere near what it is now, but I said to those people, a few hundred, maybe 500 people, and I said, I'm going to do a course, I'm going to do it cheap.

I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to just wing it, which I now learned since is a way of doing things that people teach, but I didn't know that I just was making it up. 

[02:10:08] Kellee Wynne: Honestly, you're going to get the best feedback and you're going to be able to figure out what you need to do to actually solidify your ideas. Into a proper program later, some people just develop it from the ground up and do the whole thing. And they haven't gotten the feedback 

[02:10:20] Louise Fletcher: they haven't seen it has to be perfect.

They think it has to be perfectly and that belief that it has to be 

perfect. And it has to be filmed beautifully 

with the right lighting and soft focus and all that stops people from doing the thing. That would give them the financial freedom to then do whatever they want or, and give them the, it just stops people in their tracks.

Instead of just saying, I'm going to show up like I never have any makeup on. I've very rarely brushed my hair. I've kind of brushed my hair today. So you're honored. I've usually got paint all over me. The lighting when I did it first was bad because of the space I had for my art wasn't well lit. And so my, I'm sure the videos.

that I filmed were really not very good from that perspective. But it wasn't expensive. I can't remember what I charged, but I made it cheap. And I said to people, you're helping me. And people like that feeling. They, they, they like the feeling of, Oh, I'm going to help shape this. So when I want to ask a question, I can ask anything and she'll make sure it gets covered.

I've kind of skipped a step in my story, which is for about a year before that idea dropped into my head, and this is why it wasn't a magic idea.

I had been teaching people for free. I started a free Facebook group and just had a few people come in and I did little lessons. And I was doing that because my previous business knowledge, I knew, and I still believe this and people have turned against it, but free teaching is the absolute best way to sell anything either you turn people off and they go and leave, which is fine because they're, they're not your people or you draw people to you and. They see you, they trust you, and even if, and this is the nuts part, even if you have given everything you know away for free, you can still package it together into something and say, come and pay me for this.

I'm going to do something and we're going to do it together. And they will say, yes, please, and pay the money because. It's not actually the knowledge people are looking for in separate pieces. They're looking for it all put together in an easy way. And they're looking for a feeling of going through it with you, of access to you somehow.


[02:12:28] Kellee Wynne: It's like the experience versus drip here, bits and pieces. I can put it like everyone says that, like, well, I can get all this knowledge on YouTube. We'll go ahead and see how far you get when you join a community. When you join a, like a program, like find your joy. The experience is going to be completely different than bits and pieces.

Yes. But the bits and pieces tell you whether or not, like you said, you like the teacher, you're interested in how they teach, you connect, you connect with the other people who connect with her or him. And it does, it absolutely changes the trajectory of your business. 

[02:12:59] Louise Fletcher: Yeah, I mean, when I took Nicholas Wilton's course, so 2017, I was, I wouldn't say we were broke, but I would say we were living just paying our bills and managing and his course at the time, it must have been about 1400 pounds. I think it was 2, 000 and I had just sold some paintings that equaled because I didn't charge very much for them in those days and equal to 1400 pounds.

And I remember saying to my husband, I want to take the 1400 pounds. I've just. Made and I want to spend it on this course with this guy I've only just found online. And, but the reason I knew I wanted to spend all that money, which to me was a huge amount of money and a little security net was because I'd watched as soon as I found Nicholas, I Gobbled up everything he'd done for free, learned a lot from it, and thought, right, if he can teach me all that for free, just think what he can teach me if I go into this program, and I, and I was right about that.

But there are other people who will watch him, or me, or you, and go, No, I don't agree with anything that they say. And that's okay too. It's okay. That's why I like the free teaching because it, it lets people go, actually, no, I don't like you as a teacher. I want to go somewhere else. And that's what we want.

We only want people buying our things if they're going to enjoy it, get a lot out of it, and tell other people. We don't want Unhappy people going around saying she was rubbish and, and the free teaching gives you that as well. So I think I've gone off on a tangent, but that's why I like free teaching.

[02:14:27] Kellee Wynne: Absolutely. I mean, there's 8 billion people in the world. Not every single one of them has to be for me. Right. I just need a few, a handful of people who resonate. And that's what I think is beautiful as more people are coming online to teach courses, to create programs, to create events and experiences.

There's enough for all of us. We just have to learn how to connect with our people. Love that you took that risk. There was another big risk that you took and it's pretty. Astounding. And then amazing what it's done for you. And that was reaching out and asking Alice to do a podcast with you. That's a huge risk because a lot of us say, okay, well, here's someone I admire.

Will they reject me? And in, in the long run, what it's done is created one of the top art podcasts in the entire world. 

[02:15:14] Louise Fletcher: I know. And not only one of the top art podcasts, but I sent Alice something the other day. As I hear other podcast hosts talk about their numbers and how many people download their podcast, I realized that there are some award winning podcasts with less listeners than we have and podcasts that have sponsorships and all this stuff, which we never wanted sponsorships, but I think, wow, we are really doing amazingly well because it's just a little niche podcast.

And yet, I mean, we're not up there with. Diary of a CEO or something, but we are, you know, doing really well. And that came about because. I was thinking of ways, again, free teaching, how can I reach more people? And I thought podcasts. So it was four years ago. So I'd only done one version of my course and I wanted to get more well known.

Alice at that time had a bigger following than I did. And I had met her once cause I went to a retreat that she ran. But that's the only time I met her, she was someone I'd seen online and followed and I admired her art and I admired her teaching style and I think, yes, I joined a free group that she was running.

And then I joined a paid group, just joined the paid group that she set up, the membership. So basically I was Alice's student. And. Now I'm thinking, who, well, if I want to do a podcast, I don't want to just sit and talk to myself. I didn't think I could do that. So I thought, who would I like to do it with?

The one person, for some reason, I could just 

picture a spark. And I knew Alice is very intelligent. I knew we were quite different. I knew she's got a lot to say. I liked her as a person. And I just thought Alice would be brilliant. But then I exactly what you said. I thought, well, she'll never want to do it with me because I'm just.

I had all sorts of reasons. I'm not on her level artistically. I don't have a good following and I'm a member in her group. And will that offend other members? She might not want to offend other people. I had all these reasons. And so I just thought, well, I'm just going to send her a message on Facebook because that's the least threatening thing you can do.

She can always say no without him to look me in the eye and say anything. Yeah. I pinged her a message and I was making dinner and it pinged back in like two minutes and I dared and look at it because I thought it was going to say, Oh, thank you for thinking of me, Louise, but no. And I kept looking at the thing flashing, saying, Alice message you.

And I was like, and she, her message said something like, when I finally plucked up the courage, it said something like, Oh, wow. I've been wanting to do a podcast, but I wanted someone to do it with. So yes, and someone said to me later, well, Alice manifested you asking her, like she wanted to do a podcast.

She wanted to do it with someone. So she manifested you asking. That's why you, that's why she popped into your head. So that's part, who knows, but you know, for whatever reason, for whatever reason it So then what we did is we just, um, we said, right, let's split the tasks between us. So she did all the design cause she's got a graphic design background.

She did our graphics and things. I went off and found the platform and we chose music together. We just basically did a little bit. We just took a share and we still take a share now. We split the editing between us. We, I write the descriptions. She does the graphics for the shows and it works really well.

Between us, we are very different people and we've had to navigate that over four years and I'm really proud of us because we've grown a lot as people. 

[02:18:43] Kellee Wynne: Well, and now we all sit down and listen to Art Juice and think, here are our two best friends talking. We feel like we're in the room with you having a cup of coffee or a drink or whatever. And it's like, so what happens next? And we love hearing the stories.

We love hearing. Some of the conversations have been so like, you just say, Oh yeah, Oh yeah. Me too. Me too. Through the whole conversations and other conversations, especially some of the guests I remember just like where it's just like mind opening, you're like, okay, I didn't think of it that way, but it's just, I know that maybe at four years, you're like, what are we all, what else do we have to talk about?

But I don't think your audience even cares. They just want to hear. The journey that you're on, 

[02:19:21] Louise Fletcher: I think what I will say to be really frank, because I was just discussing this on our podcast and by the time yours comes out, the episode I'm referring to will have already been out, but Alice and I were just having a discussion about Uh, priorities and what we want to do next.

And I was saying to her that I feel I've put a lot of emphasis on the teaching, a lot of emphasis on that. And that was conscious because I thought I've heard Bibi on your podcast too. I love Bibi. I can never say this properly, but Bibi, Bibi G, Bibi G, who's amazing. And she makes her whole business from selling her paintings and she makes it look effortless and wonderful.

Right. I always thought that will put too much pressure on for me and it'll take the joy away from me. For me. So I want a consistent income. I want an income so I can be free in my creativity. That was good in theory, but in practice, what's happened a little bit is that I give so much energy to my teaching and so much creativity into that, that I don't have enough left for my own artwork.

[02:20:27] Kellee Wynne: Yep, absolutely. I don't remember until recently. I haven't made art for myself. Probably the last five years. I haven't really. Wow. Yeah, myself. So, you know, and I understand like we go through, like you said, at the beginning of the podcast, things shift and change where we didn't expect five years ago that we'd be where we are now.

But I also realized that we're creative beings that we're mixing with business and all this other stuff. So things have to flow and adapt. And how do you ride that wave? Like, and still maintain, you know, the following and the business that you've built. Um, I think we just have to. Work in some breaks. If we can actually shut down some of our operations for periods of time where we can go deep into our 

[02:21:08] Louise Fletcher: creativity. Yes. Yeah. The way it used to work for me was I taught my course for, well, it lasted about three months, but actually, as you know, the launching and the wrapping up, it's, it was more like five months of my year, six months of my year was that.

And the other six months was quiet and was for me creatively, that worked really well. And then I had the genius idea that I should do a membership as well, because people wanted, they left the course and they said, what else can we do with you? And I didn't have anything. Right. Ultimate people pleaser.

I'll do a membership and I love my membership group. So, I don't regret that for a second, but what it did is throw the balance really Onto, I, because of my personality, which is if you're going to pay me for something, I'm going to make sure you get 10 times what you paid for. And that's a flaw. I'm not making that to be a good thing.

That's a character flaw. 

[02:22:01] Kellee Wynne: That's why you're very much beloved in the industry and in our community. 

[02:22:06] Louise Fletcher: Yeah. But what it does is push me into, you know, sometimes like. Complete exhaustion because I've got this to, I've got to do this to the best of my ability. It's got to be amazing. So that balance tipped. 

[02:22:20] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. Everything I did ended up being for production for somebody else, and so that's where I'm trying to retrain myself now, to make art for me first, and then bring it forward.

 We do need that nurturing, and we need to be able to, you know, and actually it's my husband who's pretty smart about it, and even my father, who says, you know, if you're not making art, are they Going to respect you as much as a teacher like you should still be creating and making art for yourself.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, you're probably right. And so I've actually spent some time making more behind the scenes and not actually sharing all of it, which is a first for me and like a decade of doing something to not immediately go and put it on, you know, a video or a photo on. Instagram, 

[02:23:06] Louise Fletcher: and also there's a pressure that comes, which isn't just about money, but it's also kind of, I read about a lot of young people falling into this trap when they become influencers, that let's say you become a big twitcher and you're playing video games and then you have to be playing video games all the time because people are expecting it and you can't take a break and kids are having breakdowns because it's too much pressure to work, work, work all the time.

And there is that feeling of. I must produce a YouTube video every week and I must that that was happening to me. I'm not, I'm, I'm over that now, but I was in that position of feeling like that. And the way I dealt with it is to say to myself, right in the run up to the course, I do want to reach as many people as possible.

So I am going to have a YouTube video every week, which means I'm going to spend a few days just. Making, editing, I have someone who helps me with editing, but making a series of videos. And I think in a week I made like 16 videos, which will go right to the course. After that's finished, I'm not pushing myself to do that every week.

[02:24:10] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. That's exactly where I am finally at right now. 

[02:24:14] Louise Fletcher: I started in my membership just recently, maybe four months ago, releasing, not just classes where I teach a skill, but these backstage pass videos that we do, which is come into my world and I'll just. Share with 

you what's happening and talk to you about it. So it can be me looking for a studio space and I can't decide and I don't know how to make a decision or it can be I'm working on a series of paintings and here's the sketchbook 

that started it and now I'm developing them.

It can be whatever I'm doing at that time and that. Has been, the response to that is much more than the response to the, now let me teach you how to get more followers on 

Instagram, or let me show you how to use color in a different way. Because, because we are modeling for other people, just like other people have modeled for me, Alice being one, Nicholas Wilton being another, quite a few different people, BB being another, people who have modeled success in different ways, that, that has inspired me to think, okay, then.

That's possible. So I think each person who shows up in whatever way they show up, it's so important for everyone else. And whatever it is for you, this is what I, this is what all my teaching is about.

So for example, take the example of, I want to be in every mug in America. You could have that desire and you could also have a little voice in your head saying, but I shouldn't want that because that's commercial and I should want to be more serious.

And you've got to resolve that for yourself because you can't do it if you're half assed in your head. You've got to say, actually having thought about it, I'm not the kind of person who wants 

to be in that. Snooty art world or whatever it is that, you know, I don't want that. I want this over here. Cause I really admire this person.

And that person who is on every mug does not worry about what the art world thinks about what they're doing. They don't think about that because they know who they are and what they're doing and why they're doing it. And I feel like I'm beginning to understand, but initially when I was making my art, I don't think these are things we understand why we're doing it.

I just was doing it. But everybody listening will have another version of that, which is different.

[02:26:25] Kellee Wynne: And it is challenging to figure out what that is and stay true to it and it will change over time. But coming back to center and allowing for a time where you're not always getting the input and giving the output and that you're just being is the only way that you can keep moving in the direction, the path that you're meant to be on.

[02:26:43] Louise Fletcher: Yeah. And when you feel like you've changed a lot, there's probably some consistent thread under that, which is who you are and what you're. Aiming for or what you, what your values are, what matters 

to you. And it's just, as long as you keep coming back to that, you're okay. It's when we get away from that, which we all do from time to time, we go somewhere we're not supposed to be. And we realized this wasn't for me. We have to come back. And everything I've said today might be something that actually turns out to be one of those things where I go, actually, no, I want to come back to here and change.

 As you know, running a membership is an awful lot of, well, I couldn't do that on my own, not 4, 000 people, there's too many.

[02:27:23] Kellee Wynne: And I only have 400 and I thought I was going to die. 

[02:27:26] Louise Fletcher: Yeah, it's 

too much. People leave, people come in, there's all sorts of things you have to do. And then people ask questions and we have two people dealing with those emails now. And I'll probably have to add more if it grows more. I have someone helps with video editing and I have my operations manager who.

Keeps everything going. Who, like you said, tells me what to do. You need to make these videos. You need to, and I'm so 


[02:27:50] Kellee Wynne: That's a lifesaver for me when I realized that the, so I originally had hired some friends and some artists who weren't really trained to do. Virtual assistant work or any admin.

And so when I finally switched over to hiring a real virtual assistant, and I like my whole life change, I'm like, actually, I adore you and I trust you. And now I'm going to make you the manager. Now you can just tell me what to do. I mean, I still get to make the visionary decisions, but the operations, it's really nice to hand that over to somebody Yes.

I know that people will be able to find you, connect with you, join your art tribe, join Find Your Joy, and just find Louise Fletcher. If you just, like, type her name in anywhere, everything comes up that you need to know. 

[02:28:34] Louise Fletcher: You've got to put art after it because there's an actress called louise Fletcher who sadly died. . She was Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was Louise fletcher. So she has louisefletcher. com and I have Louise Fletcher art. So if you're struggling to find me, if you just put Louise Fletcher art into anything, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, wherever you'll come across me.

[02:28:55] Kellee Wynne: There you go. And we will put a link in the show notes, but before we go, I love to ask this one question of everyone, which is, what is your big audacious dream? 

[02:29:07] Louise Fletcher: Oh, do you know what? I think I'm doing it. I think it's this new space because I would have struggled to express what it was a few years ago because it was what I'm doing now.

Now it's this, this, so this space that I'm going to be renting is a large studio space, but also gives me the ability. To create meetups for my, for my, um, our tribe community to have workshops in person workshops and to run retreats because it's on the grounds in the grounds of a stately home. You know, the old British like Denton Abbey type place that the owner has turned into a wellness retreat and spa.

And, um, and an office park with office buildings. And that's where my studio will be in one of these buildings. But there are cottages, holiday cottages. There's the house you can rent. There's a health restaurant. There's all this stuff there. So I can see, and I'm not promising, but I can see this opportunity for really special 

Events and part of what I'm doing in this space is there's an area, which is perfect gallery space. And, um, this will give me the ability to have my own space and to hold my own exhibitions whenever I want to, and to invite people to a beautiful.

You know, garden and stately home gardens and all this extra benefit. So I think my big audacious dream is actually happening. At the 

moment. I love it. I can't dream any bigger than that because 

it's, it's like. The biggest that you have been thinking. It's the biggest 

I can do for now. I might get bigger in the future, but for now that's as big as I can get.

[02:30:45] Kellee Wynne: That is amazing. Thank you so much. I could talk to you forever, but we'll call it a day and hopefully, you know, we can get a catch up on how this space is maybe next year. 

[02:30:56] Louise Fletcher: Yeah, 

definitely. Hopefully I should be all set up in there by then. Fabulous. 

[02:31:00] Kellee Wynne: Thank you, Louise. Take care. Bye bye.

If you'd like to listen to or learn more about the podcast visit https://www.maderemarkable.com/blog  for our show notes and links to the main players.