From Side Project to Real Business: Why Investing in Your Art Business Changes Everything with Ruth Ander (#145)

Kellee Wynne: [00:00:00] Well, hello. Hello. Just in the nick of time for a Friday afternoon happy hour podcast. I am really excited to be back another week in a row with the Made Remarkable podcast and another incredible interview. And I just wanna say I'm having fun with this, so I think I'm gonna be sticking around a bit. I love having conversations with other artists.

I think I've been missing those kind of deep. Conversations about art, about making art, and so bringing the podcast back means that I get to have these conversations and you get to listen in. I know that you're gonna keep finding them fascinating, and it's worth tuning in. And shameless plug, I am bringing in people who've been in my programs and I wanna highlight them in their success.

I wanna show you what works and. Plant a little seed in your head that you are worth it as an artist if you have a dream, and this is your path, but you should invest in yourself. And that's kind of what we talk about [00:01:00] today with Ruth Ander. She is a printmaker from the uk. She has an incredible art course that's coming out in just a short bit today.

Actually. She has a three day free event. So if you're hearing this on Friday, the 27th of February, it's not too late. If you're listening to this later, I'm sure she'll. Hosted again, but I have a confession. I'm citing up for this course. I wanna learn how she does what she does because she takes such unusual items and she does kitchen table printmaking, not jelly print, not traditional stuff, but like taking your recyclables and using them to make the most incredible marks.

It's. I don't know. It's exciting because I'm trying to spend some time right now getting back into the habit of making art. The 100 day project just started this week on Sunday, and I am still not doing a great job of [00:02:00] doing something every day, which is my goal. But you know, this is about perfection.

It's just about me being able to learn who I am again as an artist, to find myself in my journals. So if I have a chance to find something that sparks interest, I'm gonna go for it. And I encourage you the same. And if you're listening here and you're an artist with teaching experience, and you feel like it's time to take it to the next level to actually get the support you need, instead of spinning your wheels and feeling like you're doing it all alone, then I invite you to join me.

I have a free offer for you right now that you can kind of get the sparks flying. It's called Steal My Ideas. In fact, if you just go to Kelly winn.com/ 100, you can download it for free, of course. And at the end of March, I have a really powerful workshop that I'm gonna host a three Day Pro project that is gonna help you get in [00:03:00] touch with who you are as an artist, how you wanna help and serve other people, and what's possible for you.

I've done it before and it's been incredibly transformative for the people who've participated. And so. I invite you to join me for the big shift, and if you want to join the big shift, the easiest thing you can do is go and download that, steal my ideas, PDF, and it'll automatically put you on my email list so that you'll be notified in a couple of weeks when it opens.

What's the best I can say for right now? I guess in a couple of weeks it'll all be live and it'll be time for you to participate. For right now, I just hope that you're excited to be here, excited to listen, and maybe we're planting a few seeds. Let's get this podcast going now. Ruth Ander, my friends.

Ruth Ander: Hello Ruth. Hello. Hello.

Kellee Wynne: So I'm, I first have to tell everybody that I've been [00:04:00] trying to get you on the podcast for a while now, but it's been my fault, canceling and rescheduling. But here we are, new season with made remarkable. I knew for sure that I wanted to have a conversation with you because one, I find your art incredibly interesting, the way that you make it and how you teach it.

And two, it's just been such an amazing experience to have you and build it remarkable and just watch you grow. And I think people will really be able to get value from just seeing how you've built up this life that you have and your creative habits. So welcome to the podcast, Ruth. Thank you for having me.

So I'd love to start with like, maybe those earliest sparks that set you in motion for your creative path, being an artist making art, what do you remember?

Ruth Ander: You know, truthfully, I, I was not an arty kid. I was an academic kid. I had a very good memory. [00:05:00] Um, so I kind of came to the academic stuff very easily, but I just.

Loved making things. Absolutely loved it. And I think maybe that was because there was no pressure, you know, there was no outcome endpoint, anything I had to pass or fail, I could just play. And I think also my parents were very open to creativity. Neither of them are artists or creatives really, but they're open to it.

And so they just sort of allowed that to happen. So yeah, I mean, in, in school. I was really lucky to have a great secondary school teacher, high school teacher, Mr. Gardner. Shout out to Mr. Gardner. He managed to get a printing press for our school, and which was quite rare at the time, and he made us all do printmaking.

Now, some people really hated it. I absolutely loved it, and it just, it was just this little spark in me that, yeah, I, I was like, no, I [00:06:00] really like this. I'd love having a process. And yeah, so, so a lot of it was kind of him setting me on the printmaking side of things. And then, yeah, I actually decided instead of going straight to university and doing something academic, I decided to do what we have over here is called a foundation course, which is you almost convert your A levels, your school exams to an art course.

They kind of break you down and then build you up again. It's that kind of thing. It's a year long thing called a foundation course, and. That was quite a big step for me. 'cause that was kind of going against guess the way I'd been brought up. What, what I was supposed to do. I mean, I distinctly remember teachers taking me aside and saying, you really shouldn't be doing this, you know, rowing your life away.

I mean, they literally said that pretty much, you know, like, we are really worried because you could do anything and you're deciding to do art. And so it was a big decision to go against all of that, you know. But I felt, I didn't know where I got this from, but I knew [00:07:00] I needed to do something that I loved.

Um, and I was completely in the flow when I made art. You know? And you, I mean, probably, hopefully quite a lot of your listeners will know that feeling of just complete, you know, time disappears. You are in the flow. That's

Kellee Wynne: the dream, is to always be able to get to that place.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah. And you can't be like that all the time, but.

I thought, God, if I could be like that, even some of my time, it's worth trying. It's worth giving it a stab. In those days, education was free as well. Go. Education was free. Not now in the uk, but in the uk. Yeah, in the

Kellee Wynne: US

Ruth Ander: It's never been

Kellee Wynne: free.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. So that did make it, and it would bit easier, I suppose, in a way.

Yeah, I could say I'm gonna give this a go and I'm not wasting vast amounts of money. So, yeah, so that kind of set me on my path. I ended up doing a, a degree in illustration, actually. I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, again, this was the era. We're talking kind of mid nineties here. This was the era of [00:08:00] like the, the white bas, the young British artists, you know?

Mm-hmm. Damien Hurst and the Tracy Monds of the world. And it was very much, and I remember being told this, you have to have a massive personality to do contemporary art or fine art. Your personality has to match your art or your art has to match your personality. And both of them have to be big, you know?

And I'm like, oh, that's not me. I haven't got one of these. I had, my personality is not big enough anyway. I am not a Tracy Emin.

Kellee Wynne: That point really makes me think you have to have such, I agree, like we may have personalities, but to have that kind of like big, opinionated, strong points of view, something radical that you stand for.

And the truth is, is a lot of us make art because we love the process of making art. There isn't some hidden meaning in it, and that's okay. Sometimes making art for the beauty of it is the most important thing we can do, so I can understand why. It's not like a pushback on your [00:09:00] personality, it's just more of knowing the importance of why you wanted to create.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, exactly, and I think so. I mean, I was pushed towards illustration, which actually in hindsight I'm really glad of because an illustration degree, actually, we had to learn how to paint. We had to learn how to draw. We had printmaking, we had to do printmaking, which I loved, and I fell even more in love with printmaking then when I was at university.

So in hindsight, and the fine art and contemporary art students did not get that. They were just expected to kind of trade on there. A big personality. So in hindsight, I'm really glad I got this really good grounding. But I think there is also, you're absolutely right, there's a kind of middle way that isn't talked about during art education, which is you, you want to make art, but you also want to sell art.

You want to make a living from it, you know, you want to make art that people like And art, personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean, [00:10:00] yes, of course part of my practice is playing and not necessarily making things for anybody else, you know? 'cause you need to do that to grow as an artist.

But equally, I really like making art that, that I love. Somebody else loves. That's kind. That's the community. That's the whole thing.

Kellee Wynne: That's a dream. Yeah. Though there is a place in this, like the YBA and all of the other artists who've pushed the envelope on what art means and what they make. There's a place for it, but I don't have a passion for it, so why would I wanna put myself in a situation where I'm forced to make.

A statement out of nothing to be radical for the sake of being radical.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: I'm not about to cut a horse into pieces or be jewel a, a skull or show my bed and where I slept. These, these. Ideas and concepts are part of our world history [00:11:00] of art, but it's not the path most of us even desire to go down. So I think it's, it actually makes more sense to me that we're looking for a way to improve our skills, find what we love, create work that lights us up.

And yes, like you said, I wanna create work for me and not just for somebody else, but one. It sure is delightful when they like it. Absolutely, I think, but of friction I think. Yeah.

Ruth Ander: But there's this sort of idea, or sometimes within our education, this idea that you're almost selling out if you want to make art that connects with people and that they might want to spend money on.

And I think that can really hold people back actually, that if they've gone through the art education system anyway. The money is just energy flowing around. Correct. Right. Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: But don't you, in some ways I feel like, 'cause I've watched the rise of social media and I was in art industry, be as you, I was involved in it before the rise of social media, [00:12:00] good and bad and ugly of social media.

But I feel like it democratizes the kind of art we make instead of everything having to be outrageous. We see more often through social media that we're all creating work that lights us up, right? This kind of middle ground work that we want to have meaning, but also make an income. And there's very few people who are ever gonna be Damien Hurst level income, right?

Ruth Ander: Yeah, yeah, exactly. What did we do before Instagram? I mean, okay, there are lots of bad things about social media. But I've seen so much amazing art on there that just inspires me, made by, you know, so say normal people, people that don't have these massive personalities, they're not stars. How about just

Kellee Wynne: the general population?

The majority of artists make art. The way we make

Ruth Ander: art. It inspires me actually. Things that they, those people make really inspire me. It's [00:13:00] doable. It's based on real life quite often. Yeah. And I, yeah. I am quite happy. I love looking at local artists, local art trails and open studios, and I love looking on Instagram as well and, and social media in general to just see what's out there.

You know, it doesn't have to be in a gallery or

Kellee Wynne: museum level, but I grew up around artists who are making art for the beauty of it mostly. Sellable art, but, but they commanded attention. They made incredible incomes. And that was in the eighties and early nineties when I knew them. You know, that was my childhood.

So my impression wasn't of. The radical ideas. It was only later that I learned Duchamp put a toilet bowl in the museum and called it art. What I grew up around was oil painting and scenes of everyday life. And honestly, I would [00:14:00] bet, even though that's not what Art Basel wants you to believe, the majority of us, that's what we would prefer in our house is something a little more.

Relatable, but that doesn't mean people don't push the boundaries. Even within this kind of commonplace of who we are as artists, like I see the most incredible things, like you said, people making sculptures out of yarn and like just the way people create and the ideas that are transpiring and shared across the globe.

I find it so incredibly fascinating and satisfying. And that's also one of the fun things about bringing a group of artists together who are all working in the same common goal in our builders community, is that not one person has the exact same path as somebody else. You know? Like anything's possible.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, absolutely.

Kellee Wynne: Tell me what happened after school, when it was time to actually make an [00:15:00] income. What was your path like at that?

Ruth Ander: Well, probably very similar to lots of other kids actually. That was, that was one. Another really great thing about doing illustration is they did actually give us quite a few lectures about how you were supposed to make money.

You know, working to briefs, invoicing people, you know, the basics of invoicing people. So that, that was actually quite useful. But I never did do illustration. I was never an illustrator. Um, I think I probably didn't really want to work to briefs. Also, it's very competitive out there, and what I found was that actually GE Galleries did prefer my work.

Galleries rather than illustration agents or art directors. So I thought actually, hmm, maybe this is the route to go down. So I start, I carried on with my printmaking, which I had fallen in love with at at university. I did it at home. So because I didn't want to pay for a sort of open studio. Really, if I'm honest with myself, it was partly because I didn't [00:16:00] want anyone telling me what to do.

Kellee Wynne: Ruth, come on. That is the best answer you that correcting how you're gonna make your art. That's awesome.

Ruth Ander: There is a lot of that in print making. Oh, you shouldn't be doing it like that. You should be doing it like this, or it's, that's not gonna work. And all this kind of stuff. That's the

Kellee Wynne: proper way. Yeah,

Ruth Ander: yeah,

Kellee Wynne: exactly.

You hear that in watercolor, you hear that in

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: How you use acrylic and like all the different mediums, there's supposedly a proper way or it's supposed to work like this. And yet the only way we make advancements and create something totally unique is by questioning all of that. And then doing it our own way anyway.

Ruth Ander: Totally, totally. So I was 21, I suppose, when I came out of uni and I, I didn't have the confidence to turn around to somebody and say, well, I'm gonna do it my way. So what I did was just move those people from my life. So I started printmaking it home and just really, really loving it. So this is literally [00:17:00] roll.

Well, it's actually still how I do it, mainly now. I used oil paints because I had oil paints. I did have a roller. I used some glass from an old picture frame and I just rolled the color out onto the glass and I had some tissue paper and I had some thin paper and you know, I would just use that to print on and I still do that now.

But I loved it and I carried on doing that and I kind of found a way of making. Landscape art, which is I'm, I would call myself a landscape artist in that way that I enjoyed and that I liked, and then found that actually some other people quite liked it as well. So ended up selling my work through galleries, through events.

I've never sold enough to make an amazing living street, you know, directly from the art. But what I do love is. I love the connection between whoever's looking or buying my art. I love speaking to people 'cause people get so enthusiastic about my art. So I still [00:18:00] do that now. I still have artwork in various galleries.

I still do events. I love talking to people. So that's how I started off. I did have a day job as well. I, I had various day jobs, admin type stuff, which I think probably lots of people do, you know? Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: I, I do think that's a path a lot of people take, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. As in big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, she says, don't make your art pay, because that's when it suffocates, right?

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: And so if there's a way to take the pressure off. Because when you are demanding your creativity to support your life, that's challenging. And yet the big dream for most creatives is, can I turn this into something that I do full time?

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: I think that we have to ask ourselves a question, is that really the path you wanna go down?

And so even though I encourage artists to make a living out of their art. A lot of times when young people come, [00:19:00] or even women my age, I will ask, is this really what you wanna do or do you wanna keep it as your creative outlet?

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: It's not always the right path for everyone to turn their creativity into something where they're trying to make, not just selling a piece here or there, that's like for the fun of it.

Like you said, being part of galleries, being part of the community, but to actually turn it into something that's making an income that supports you, pays the bills. That's a little scary. I understand. I've seen people obviously be successful, but it's not the path for everyone, right? No. And I just think that

Ruth Ander: it is a little friction when you're an artist and you say, I've, I've tried to explain this so many times to non-art.

And you say, well, I have a creative business. And they're like, oh, so it's a business then. And I'm like, yeah, but. I don't make loads of one product and then, and sell them, you know, and get orders and [00:20:00] say, and it's a business because I make the things, I make not, I don't make the things because I have a business.

It's a very difficult thing to get your head around. They're like entangled very much. And yeah, I just, I think it's very difficult and I think actually if you just love making art, maybe don't complicate the whole thing with trying to make money from it. Right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that might come in time and I think actually that's part of what I, a realization over the last couple of years since I've been doing online courses is that has been, it, that business has actually been quite separate from making, and that's been quite nice for me actually.

That there's, there is a way of having a creative, a truly creative business that doesn't rely on me. Having to sell the things, the actual objects I make, I suppose. So that's a really nice realization for me.

Kellee Wynne: It's also, I [00:21:00] mean like the one to many is scalable. There's only a max amount of pieces of art that you can get out into this world and sell.

And unless you are one of those famous gallery artists, most of us aren't gonna be selling our work for 10 or 20 grand a piece, you know? So the ability to make the kind of income that feels sustainable, right? Yeah. Is still a challenge. And I think we've hit an art bubble, if you will, because I think all through the 2010s and into the early 2020s, there was this idea, if I just show up on Instagram, I'm gonna be able to sell my art and I'm gonna make a lot of money.

And everyone wanted to be an artist, whether they had the experience or not. And there's no. Shame in that I think everyone should be an artist, but to, to also say, I'm gonna sell my art and I'm gonna be able to sustain myself. You have to really stop and think if you are [00:22:00] making 40 or 50 grand off of your art.

But the supplies take up probably the supplies and shipping and all of the maintenance. You know, bringing home 25, 30 grand a year is not a sustainable income.

Ruth Ander: If you're lucky, you know? Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: If you're, and that's on the lucky side, but as a little side, side hustle, which would still be a whole time hustle, let's be honest.

They could pay like to put the stress on yourself. To make it pay, is what I'm saying. Not everybody needs to do that.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I have slowly extricated myself from my day job in little incremental steps because of what I didn't wanna do was go right. That's it. No money coming in at all. And then like you say, the pressure is quite difficult to to handle.

Mm-hmm. If, if everything is based on selling stuff, selling objects to people, that's pretty hard to do. So. Yeah,

Kellee Wynne: absolutely. So now we've turned a corner and I'm telling everyone, not everyone needs [00:23:00] to make money from their art, and yet my job is to help people make money from their art. But I really, I've been through that path of selling art.

Realized that for me, there was an incredible satisfaction in teaching art and being in these artist communities. It was people who had the opportunity to create in that freeway that you've been talking away about this whole time, the exploration, the expressing yourself, getting in flow. That's the reason we do it, right?

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah,

Kellee Wynne: that's true. Everyone should make our, maybe not everyone needs to make money off of art, but. I love the fact that there are people willing to teach their art, so it's more accessible than having to go to university, um, college, art school, you know? Yeah. We have a network across the globe of incredibly talented people that are willing to share what they're doing.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's, I mean, [00:24:00] lockdown was, um, well, it was awful, obviously, but also. It opened up this whole world to so many people, including myself, to learn online. And I mean, it's opened up so many doors for me to be able to do an online well, you'll, uh, build it remarkable. For instance, I did that online with you and then obviously for people to then do online courses with me, and it's so lovely to see and hear about the joy that these things bring to people.

I've had so many messages recently, you know, I am so rural and I can't get to this and I can't do that, but I can log on and I can do something creative with you. And that's, that is so lovely to hear. And a lot of people, of course, they wouldn't be able to do things perhaps in, in real life anyway, whether they've got mobility issues or.

Right issues or whatever.

Kellee Wynne: And even financially, the online [00:25:00] course industry is really rather affordable. If you think about Yeah. What you get for it. The kind of quality of, for most, not every art teacher out there, but, and that. Such an amazing heart-centered group of women creating men too. I have coached men, but mostly women, but just the way that we connect with others has really changed.

Like it, it serves me in knowing there's that kind of goodness out there, right? Mm-hmm. I've received some of those messages just like you, where it's life changing for the person who's receiving it. So when I realized how important that was, and I realized that other people could be putting their art out as education for others, I knew this was an important path to go down.

And then I get the opportunity to meet people like you, Ruth, and so many others. Dozens of others of artists. So tell me now, [00:26:00] what does it mean to be printing at home without the printing press? Talk about this process because. When I saw you doing it at once, you joined me and I discovered you and learned all about your art.

And I'm watching these reels, I'm watching these videos and I'm like, just, it's so good. It's so beautiful. But it is so cool because you kept explaining it the beginning. You can just do it at your kitchen table. I'm like, I don't get it. Like fight. No. No, it doesn't have to be on a jelly plate. It can be on so many things.

You have everything you need right at home. So why don't you talk about how this all evolved. Obviously you didn't wanna go into the printing press studio and be told what to do, so you figured out how to do it at home.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, yeah. I mean, basically I, I love monoprint, well, I call it monoprint monotype. You might hear those words bandied around.

Quite painfully and it's something you, you can do on your kitchen [00:27:00] table. I would say probably the only thing you might need is a roller or a brayer, I think you call it in America. And yeah, I didn't wanna be told what to do. I knew I wanted to do this kind of quite painfully feeling, kind of printing.

And so I just tried and tried and tried and tried again. And the one great thing about printmaking, of course, is. You can do hundreds of iterations. You can do it again and again and again quite easily. 'cause you're not painting a massive canvas or anything. Or you're only using papers. So you can fail.

You can try and fail. You can fail a hundred times if you want to. You'll have a massive stash of collage papers. Brilliant. You know? But so I think it, for me, it loosens you up as an artist, I think. Working with paper in general? Actually, I think yes. Really loosens you up?

Kellee Wynne: It's my favorite material in the whole wide world.

I love paper so much.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But yeah, like I said, I started with a piece of glass that I had taken from an old picture frame. I had some old [00:28:00] paints to hand, um, and I had a roller and some paper, and I just thought, I'm gonna go with this. And I just, I love the subtlety of the marks. The marks you can make with printmaking are just.

Unrivaled. And I remember somebody asking me once, like, why do you even do this? Why don't you paint or do etching or lithography or something? Why this in between thing? And I'm like,

Kellee Wynne: well that, that's a good question. Why not just put the mark right onto the paper?

Ruth Ander: Yeah, it I know is the answer. I'm gonna challenge you because actually it's an indirect mark.

You putting a process or something between your hand and what ends up on the paper now that can be quite freeing, I find. Particularly if you have that, that sort of fear of the canvas or the piece of paper, which I know sometimes we all do.

Kellee Wynne: Mm-hmm.

Ruth Ander: You can make a mark on something else and then place your paper on top.

So it's like you are taking the control away, which can be quite [00:29:00] nice. You are taking the directness away, which can also be quite freeing and I think that's probably part of it and it, I also quite like the fact that he. And you just get these beautiful, uncontrollable marks that you're not sure what you're gonna get when you start out.

And that is a real thrill when you, when you peel that paper away. And I kind, you've never had this before, like you are in for a treat when you're peeling the paper away and you're like, what have I got? What have I got? I mean, it's so they

Kellee Wynne: work.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, exactly. So it's, do you use a jelly plate? I don't actually.

And I think I'm, this is a. I didn't know anything about jelly plates for like ages. I just kind of went along merrily doing my own thing, and I think jelly plate printing was definitely much bigger in America than it probably was in Britain. I think it, it really took off there. Uh, it is now quite pretty big in, in Britain as well, actually.

It's kind of caught up a [00:30:00] bit, but by that point I'd gone so far down the route of me using, I just basically use a hard, smooth, flat surface, any hard, smooth, flat surface. And I had gone down that route so far that I'd kind of, I, I loved using that and I felt it was, I dunno about more flexible, but it certainly for me, I felt I could make more marks with a harder surface than a softer jelly plate.

But I do know that the jelly plate people who will be shouting at the podcast now because they'll, oh, but you can do so much with jelly plate printing and you can, I know, and I think I have. In some ways I've just decided not to go down that route because it, for me, it would just be this massive rabbit hole of, and, and I know I'd love it.

I know I probably would love it, but I, it's a whole nother thing.

Kellee Wynne: It's just a whole different process. 'cause I and I have seen how you create and the marks that you make. And so the question I was pushing a little bit before of why not [00:31:00] just make the mark on paper? And I've asked myself that a lot of times with jelly plate printing.

Why wouldn't I just stencil right onto my paper? Why wouldn't I just roll this right onto my paper? Why wouldn't I just make this mark right onto my paper? And you can, but like you said, not only is it the unpredictability about it, but there is a different kind of mark that it makes when it's a secondary and you're pulling that print off and there's no other way to really replicate that, and especially with what you do, the kinds of marks because.

To give the listener kind of the view is this paint is rolled out thin on a hard surface and then you're putting paper on it and making the marks on the paper on the top of the

Ruth Ander: paper. So you can either make marks in your ink, which is really lovely and painterly, and then take a print of that. Or you can put your paper on and push onto the back, like you say, with whatever tool you want to push onto the back.

Right. [00:32:00] So,

Kellee Wynne: and like you said, that magic is in the peeling up the page and saying. Did this work? Did this turn out how I want? And then layering it and

Ruth Ander: yeah,

Kellee Wynne: there's no, yeah,

Ruth Ander: big fan of layering.

Kellee Wynne: I think that's

Ruth Ander: part of the thing with printmaking as well, is that you are creating a very, very, very thin image on your paper, which means you can then put another layer on and another layer and another layer, and they're all reacting with each other.

I find a lot more

Kellee Wynne: interesting

Ruth Ander: than thicker paint, I suppose, you know? Right. I like this transparency and. I like working wet on wet as well, so that you get sort of colors merging and drifts of color. Mm. But then I also love, I mean this is the other side of what I do is I, I do print with printing plate, like I actually make printing plates and print those by hand as well.

So you can even print in taglio printmaking plates. So like dried point etching. Oh yeah. Where you're etching into a surface. You can print those at home. Does take a bit of muscle, muscle paint.

Kellee Wynne: Yeah. That's part of, that's part of my course that I do online. Yeah. [00:33:00]

Ruth Ander: Look, you're right now you're just talking me into taking forth.

Yes. Yeah. But I just feel like it, it is one step beyond the jelly play. So Monoprint yes, is very, the monoprint I teach is very similar to jelly plate printing, but then you can then take that step further and create. Printing plates, color graph plates, dry point plates, lino. A lot of people will have done lino, but you can print all of those things by hand at home.

And what I love about it, you can, because you're doing it at home, you can sort of layer up one on top of the other. You can collage into it. You can print and collage at the same time. Chin colle, which is really fun. And it's actually the same kind of thing. You make your marks on your printing plate. You cannot control how they are going to print on your paper.

And again, it's just that real thrill as you pull your printing plate away or your paper away. Yeah. So how many,

Kellee Wynne: how many would you say, you know, [00:34:00] 'cause like I said, I've done jelly plate printing and I would say only a couple out of every dozen turn out to be like, wow, that's amazing. The rest will like, that's fun.

I might have to print some more, turn it into collage paper. How many. Pieces, do you think turn out to a finished product for you when you're doing this process?

Ruth Ander: Well, I have to say I have got to a stage, 'cause I've done it for so long now where I used to do a lot of iterations because I wanted to get it absolutely perfect.

Now I will tend to, I think, okay, that didn't print so well. Right. I'll just keep going. I'll put something else on it. I'll cover that bit up. I might crop the whole thing down. I might cut the bit off. I might put some collage over. So I will actually, now, I will just keep going and keep going until I've got something that I like.

So most things that I try to make, turn into something. At any rate, I don't throw much away. But I do appreciate that when you're first starting this process, particularly if you've come from say [00:35:00] painting or something like that, and I, this is the outcome I want and this is what I'm gonna produce. Oh, it hasn't worked and it does take a little bit of time.

And they will be. So, say failures. I don't really quite believe in failures. I, I can't think of a different word at the moment, but, well, it hasn't worked quite the way you wanted.

Kellee Wynne: Right? They're the experiments that lead you to knowing the next thing you wanna do, right?

Ruth Ander: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Failing better.

And so. I always say to people during the course, I do online now and always when I have taught face-to-face, keep everything, keep it all. I mean, if nothing else, it's gonna be collage fodder. But quite often I remember doing face-to-face workshops with people and I fished some work out of the bin because somebody had, I hate that.

It's just not what I wanted. Thrown it in the bin and I said, keep that. Honestly, it's a really beautiful texture. Just keep it, we'll just put it by the side for the moment. Then a couple of hours later [00:36:00] she thought, oh, do you know what? I've got nothing to lose. I'll put another layer on that print. And it turned out to be her best print of the whole day.

That happens quite a lot. So I sort of, I do repeat myself a bit endlessly, like keep everything, keep everything. Um, because once you have let go of your initial outcome that you wanted, if you can let go of that, you will often find that you look with much clearer eyes at what you actually got in front of you.

Quite often what you've actually got in front of you is a beautiful texture or a couple of colors that have just melded beautifully together that you didn't plan. Or some ragged edge that wasn't supposed to be there, but actually is really gorgeous, you know? So if you can let go of the outcome, and I appreciate, that's probably one of the hardest things to do.

And I run my online course last year and one thing I discovered the sort of earlier stages pe, there was quite a few students that were. So tell me what to do. Tell me [00:37:00] what the outcome should be. I want to know what the outcome is. And they felt quite uncomfortable with the idea of just playing and just making it things just to start with, you know?

Kellee Wynne: Mm-hmm.

Ruth Ander: Um, and I do understand that. So I've put a couple of extra things in this time around to just hopefully, um, help people ease into that idea of. Well, I call them baggy plans. So you have a baggy plan, you have an inkling of what you want to come out at the end, and my baggy plan normally involves a very, very simple composition sketch and maybe two or three colors that I want to use.

That's how baggy it is. It's very loose. Yeah. A scratching

Kellee Wynne: loose. It's,

Ruth Ander: yeah. But ideally not to have a very, very. Realize picture in your head of what you want the outcome to be, because it will stop you seeing what you actually have in front of you, which is often really, really beautiful textures and [00:38:00] marks.

You know,

Kellee Wynne: absolutely gotta be a little zen Buddhist about it and have no expectations, because expectations turn into disappointment. So if you just go in with the plan of play and whatever happens, happens that any piece you can make marks on again, you can use again. There's massive freedom in that because you're not looking to make a masterpiece with every print that you pull.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, right. Absolutely. Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: Tell me what your favorite paper is, because you know I am a paper aficionado. I'm still learning about different kinds of paper, but if you were to come into my studio, you would see it. I have hoard paper. Love it. I love paper.

Ruth Ander: I love it too. Actually, for a long, long time I used tissue paper a lot for monoprints, so quite painterly monoprints I would do on tissue paper partly because when you're hand printing, you're not using much pressure.

It's really thin. It will pick up tiny, tiny, really subtle [00:39:00] marks because it's so thin. I do really like that, but it is difficult to handle. It's not everyone's cup of tea. I love Japanese paper, Asian papers in general, but it's a quite thin Japanese paper. I was lucky enough to go to Japan about 18 months ago and I did find this amazing paper shop in Kyoto.

So I bought load as much as I could get into my luggage. I bought lots of lovely, soft, not too textured. I usually go and quite light. That's what I tend to go to are washy, um

Kellee Wynne: mm-hmm.

Ruth Ander: Goji sometimes. Um, and I can't think of the names of some of 'em off the top of my head. Those are ones that I often use or order.

I would recommend places like Great art.com and Intaglio, printmaker, they will send out little tester um

Kellee Wynne: Oh, that's cool.

Ruth Ander: Paper, which is really useful if you want to figure out what you want. But I tend to go for soft, thin,

Kellee Wynne: soft and smooth. Not [00:40:00]

Ruth Ander: fast, smooth, fairly smooth.

Kellee Wynne: Yeah.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, yeah. Definitely.

Kellee Wynne: That's my favorite too.

Um, I love Japanese papers, Japanese stationary, and art supplies in general, but

Ruth Ander: I tend to

Kellee Wynne: lean towards those Japanese papers as well.

Ruth Ander: Well, they really know what they're doing because everything's made of paper over there. The walls are made of paper. They have a paper for every single conceivable use, so they really know what they're doing.

Paper.

Kellee Wynne: Wow.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: In fact, they ma, they made some kind of a paper. I'm holding up a book right now, but most people will not be seeing a video of this, but. I have my Midori journal made with beautiful smooth paper, but the cover is made of paper and it's this really thick paper that's supposed to wear like leather.

Ruth Ander: Ooh, I've not heard of that.

Kellee Wynne: Yeah, you can actually buy rolls of it on Amazon. So

Ruth Ander: honey, no,

Kellee Wynne: I don't purchase. Yeah. Um, let's talk a little bit about teaching, why you switched into it [00:41:00] and what your experience has been so far because. You came to me. You didn't have any courses yet, or did you have Uh,

Ruth Ander: I had made some online courses and I, I haven't really known how to market them, I guess, and get them out so that people could see them that, but having said that, that was, it was really useful, just the process of making those two courses.

How to film and how to edit and how to put things together and how to teach online, which is different to teaching face to face very much because you're not getting direct feedback constantly from people, so from students. So it is quite a different thing to do. So that was really useful. And then coming into Build It Remarkable, I had, it was just perfect timing, really.

Absolutely perfect timing. 'cause I thought, well, I know how to make a course and I know people want it. And I've had some really good feedback. How do I get it out there to people? So yeah, I mean, buildup model was exactly what I needed, exactly the right time. And I think [00:42:00] also I had been up to that point like very resistant to invest money, invest time, invest energy into that side of things.

I think I sort of thought, well, this has to be a side tussle and I don't wanna put too much energy and money into this. Actually, what I started to realize from a lot of what you said actually was. Look, if this is gonna work, you are gonna have to pay some attention to it, at the very least. But ideally, you wanna be investing some time and energy and money into it because you will get that back and you are absolutely right.

It was quite a leap for me. It was quite a leapfrog to go deep breath. Right. I'm gonna put some money aside to put into this, you know, just not vast amount, but just that's okay. It's okay to invest in this. Small business is fine and to put some energy and time in as well. And suddenly then you start to see the rewards.

It starts working a bit and you think, oh, okay, [00:43:00] that was worth it. And then you decide to put a bit more time and energy in. Like I say, it worked just at the right time for me. Um, and you might not realize this, but I used to get very, I almost like stage fright. When I did face-to-face teaching, I started to get very anxious about it and it, for me, it became a real.

Energy drain because I really had to get over this, like anxiety and stage fright. Crazy, really. But teaching online meant it took that aspect away from it, the whole thing. And I found it m much less energy draining. And yet I could still teach, I could still get through to people, I could make connections.

And people were really enjoying it. So get And you don't ever have

Kellee Wynne: to

Ruth Ander: leave your house. Exactly. Love it.

Kellee Wynne: I'm a homebody. I didn't, yeah. I was a homebody my whole life until lockdown happened and then I was like, oh, I like not going. But as I joke all the time, I'm either here or very far away and nowhere in between.[00:44:00]

But I love the fact that we can connect with people all over the world and our, our courses do that well. You've been with me since 2024. You renewed with Build It Remarkable. Which I have seen even more growth in this second year. And I love seeing that you started with a few hundred people on your list and now you're at like, what, over 7,000?

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kellee Wynne: And you're launching a second time. The first time you had over a hundred people buy, or about a hundred people.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah. Which was amazing. I, yeah, I, it blew my mind, huh?

Kellee Wynne: And now we're going for another big launch, which I'm really excited about, which I'm gonna make sure everybody knows that Make Your Mark is your launch event, your free event so people can get to know you, get to know how you make your art and see if it's a good fit.

Mm-hmm. And that starts on February 27th, which should just be right after this airs, so don't miss [00:45:00] people. Yeah. And then we put all those links where everyone can go. Go and search Ruth Ander if you're like. Even unsure where to find her. I'm gonna make sure that everybody knows. But this is part of the process that I teach from your concept of what your business is, the message that you need to bring with that keystone project that we work on.

Defining our niche, defining our person that we're working with, to how do we market it, how do we bring people onto our list? How do we talk about it? And then how do we make the offer and. I love that you said it was hard for you to make the decision to invest at the beginning. Well, what I see is a lot of people put a course out and they hesitate to invest.

So basically what they're doing is working really hard and not making money, and I, I feel like what you get out of buildup remarkable. My goal is to help you. [00:46:00] So I wanted to accessible and for people to be able to get in and get results and is based off of watching people like you, Ruth, and everyone else in the program following.

It's simple, not easy, if you know what I mean. Absolutely. It's a simple task. Yeah,

Ruth Ander: yeah.

Kellee Wynne: But it doesn't mean it's easy, but when you follow it, it's like there's a rhythm and a routine to it, and you do see on the other end of it, success. Yeah, and so I'm glad you took that chance and invested in yourself and though you don't have to have a course coming in to build it.

Remarkable. I find that those who've like already, that seed has already planted. They've already been creating, they've already been teaching, and now it's time to like actually grow. Those people are very motivated. Those amazing artists are very motivated to follow the path and get like where you are.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found I'd sort of started on that path and then you and Builder Michael came along just at the right time and [00:47:00] I could go onto the, go to the highway or whatever, but, but anyway, so I think it is quite useful to, to have some idea of social media, even if you haven't got loads of followers or some kind of, yeah.

Social media or marketing tool that you enjoy and you like to do already is quite useful. And perhaps some idea of what you would like to teach. I think I always knew it was always, it was going to be printmaking, home printmaking, because that's what I did, which was useful to know. But you are very good at teaching the whole niche thing, you know, niching down, which is very useful.

Yeah,

Kellee Wynne: yeah. And just figuring out the right language around what you're building. Right. You really were able to distill it down to. Using what you already have at home and printing from your kitchen table and that kind of concept, it's like makes it very easy for people to know that they don't need a whole lot of equipment.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: And yet they can create incredible works of art. [00:48:00] I know you said your landscape, but to clarify, it's very abstract, very kind of eent, gorgeous abstract

Ruth Ander: should we call

Kellee Wynne: it.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: Yeah. And I love, love it. I would definitely, um. You might find me in your course.

Ruth Ander: You're very welcome, but I think, yeah, you're right.

I hadn't figured out previously like what I was actually saying, my messaging and who it was going to, and actually that's what the free three days that I'm doing make your mark that has come directly out of figuring out who I'm talking to. They want to make beautiful marks. They may not necessarily be.

The best at drawing or the best at painting or ever have done those things before. But they do want that lovely thrill and flow and that feeling you get when you make a really gorgeous mark and printmaking is obviously a good way to do that. So yeah, but I hadn't thought in that way at all. [00:49:00] And suddenly when you start thinking about who you are really

Kellee Wynne: trying to connect with, it all becomes a whole lot simpler.

Ruth Ander: The title and the content and all the things. I thought, yeah, this is exactly, I know exactly what I need to do, Nan.

Kellee Wynne: Right? It's taking the mystery out of what's the next step. It's like the path, the blueprint for yourself, and each person has their own blueprint, right? Not one, one person in the program has the exact same business model or concept, and that's what's really cool is it's not.

The pathway is the same as far as the steps or the framework, I should say, but each person's path is a different path, and that's why when I work with everybody, I choose to have a smaller group because I wanna make sure that what works for you and what works for her and what works for the other person that it's going to work.

That's an, it's one of my driving principles or [00:50:00] values of my business. Is that I'm not just bringing in thousands of people and letting them swim in a sea. Of, of confusion of like, now what do I actually do? I love the hands-on. I love getting on the Zoom calls. I love having conversations. I get to know you.

I get to know what your hopes and dreams are. I get to see you light up. I get to know when things are working and when not working, and it's been so much fun. To watch you go, okay, I did the next thing and I just keep putting one foot in front of the other and never look at where I'm at.

Ruth Ander: And I think that's the difference though.

Those remarkable is very much for artists and creatives. And I think, like I was saying before, the idea of an art business or a creative business, it's like people can't get their heads around that because it's not like any other type of business. No,

Kellee Wynne: not at

Ruth Ander: all. At all. And most of us are trying to also make art at the same time alongside.

Mm-hmm. And I think it, it's really good to have someone that knows about. That kind of life and trying to balance it and juggle it all as well, you know? Yeah,

Kellee Wynne: right. We're all in it together. We [00:51:00] all have the same kind of dreams. We are all artists or creatives of some sort in the program, because I am an artist, I am a creative, and that's, so I wanted my own niche, which was for artists and creatives, but like you said, people don't understand the work that we do, the business that we do.

Most of the marketing and business. Advice out there is for other B2B.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: Um, people who are maybe copywriters or virtual assistants or teaching how to, you know, do social media and they're learning how to run their business from other businesses, whereas I am looking for the person who's serving the artist, who's serving the student and teaching the student and making, putting more art and beauty into the world, but.

Though people don't understand our business. That's why I just stop trying to explain it to most people. Just have them

Ruth Ander: think whatever they're gonna think and Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: Yeah. I have to just let them think what [00:52:00] they're gonna think. You know how that little art business of yours going? Yeah, it's alright. Thank you very much.

But that's why we do what we do because we're not trying to get the accolades, we're just trying to connect with other people.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. You know? Exactly. And live a life that we want to live, you know?

Kellee Wynne: Right.

Ruth Ander: Day to day. Day to

Kellee Wynne: day. And so anyhow, so Ruth Ander on social media,

Ruth Ander: Ruth Ander Prince on Social Media, Ruth Print across the board.

Ruth ander.co.uk website.

Kellee Wynne: Yeah.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. And make your mark three days of prompts and videos and Mark making fun. So that's definitely,

Kellee Wynne: and then after that canned printing, happiness opens up.

Ruth Ander: Yes. Yeah. People have a

Kellee Wynne: chance to learn your magic.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. Yeah. So that takes you all the way from playing with Monoprints, setting up your print studio at home all the way through to printing, with printing plates and taglio, printing plates.[00:53:00]

Uh, yeah. All sorts of fun stuff. How to present your work. So it looks really good and yeah.

Kellee Wynne: Okay. So. I have been asking people on and off on this podcast what your big, audacious dream is, and quite often lately, I've a lot of people who are like, I'm living the dream, and I think that that's the most beautiful thing.

But if you could push yourself and say, where do you see yourself in like five years from now?

Ruth Ander: One of the things that I, one of my intentions is to have a spacious life, I suppose. Time. Time for myself, time for self care, time with my family. And I have that as an intention. And I know that if I have as an intention, it will happen more or less.

And I think that's probably, that is that, that sounds very simple, that I can make my art, that I can connect with other people and I have enough [00:54:00] space in my life to breathe. And and feel okay. And actually whatever's around, whatever's swirling around, whether I live somewhere else or in a big house or not, or on a little island, that is one of my little dreams actually living on a little he DN island all by myself in a little Scottish, but

Kellee Wynne: yourself, I know.

Just for a little bit. Just for a little bit.

Ruth Ander: Yeah. But yeah, actually, how do I want to live day to day? Well, I want some space. I want some breathing space, and I want to. Not feel overwhelmed or pressured particularly. So that's probably, in a way, that's what my dream is like not actual things, but a way of being, I guess.

Kellee Wynne: Do you feel like being well resourced, which is a nice way of saying, making a really incredible income, is part of that because, and I'm just bringing this up because I believe that it is. The better resourced we are, the less stress we have, the less requirement we [00:55:00] have on the rest of society. The re, the less pressure it puts on our family.

And then also to make that space, and I'm not talking about hundreds of millions or even tens of millions. I'm just talking about enough. Yeah. That there is room to breathe to say, you know, and I'm not stressed because if a bill pops up tomorrow, I can handle it. Right. If my. A child gets sick, I can handle it.

If we wanna take a family vacation, we've got it covered. And that's, to me, in a lot of ways that being well resourced means I have spaciousness to breathe.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: I have more ability to say, I don't have to stress about that anymore because I have the resources I need to care for me and mine and the things that are important to me, you know, to give to my community to support the causes that matter.

I just wanted to put that out there, because artists sometimes are very afraid to make money because they think, why should I make money doing something [00:56:00] I love?

Ruth Ander: Yeah, yeah. But I was just gonna say that I think, I think you're absolutely right. I think a feeling of security would go a long way towards peace of mind and spaciousness.

And I also think, I personally, I think I would probably have to stop myself. I feel like I'd have to stop myself, you know, saying when is enough? Because you can always say, I want more or want more. I want more. I'll feel more secure if I had this amount. Or

Kellee Wynne: I'll tell you when. It's when your peace of mind starts to be interrupted by the need to hustle more.

In order to make more. Yeah. So I think enough happens when you feel safety in your body. Yeah. Like I'm making the kind of income I want without stressing myself out because I've been at that place where I stress myself out. Then the income isn't worth it. Right?

Ruth Ander: Yeah,

Kellee Wynne: exactly. The enough point comes where you're actually at ease.

Ruth Ander: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: So that could be for, everybody has got a different number for that, but most [00:57:00] of us, a few hundred thousand and we're like way beyond what we had ever even imagined we'd have.

Ruth Ander: Yep. You know?

Kellee Wynne: Yeah. No,

Ruth Ander: yeah. I, I agree actually. I think that's the thing, but I think it does take a bit of. Discipline probably that when you do feel that safety in your body and you know that's enough to not have to not react to all those messages that say, you should be growing, you should be getting bigger.

You should want more. Yeah. And just being confident enough to say, no, no, this is enough. This is good. I like this. You know? Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: Yeah. I intentionally have been building up my business now that I've come back from the burnout to do it in a way that feels good and doesn't stress me out. So. Previous marketing advice and hustle culture and marketing bros and boss babes.

And they're like, you gotta make eight figures. And I'm like, so wait, six figures was great. Yeah, seven figures was a dream. And now you're telling me I'm supposed to make eight figures. I'm supposed to make $10 million or more a year. What, at what [00:58:00] cost?

Ruth Ander: Yeah, exactly.

Kellee Wynne: And so I had put myself through that thought process that I was supposed to be like that until I realized that that isn't the life I ever wanna live.

Ruth Ander: No, you need to figure out what you want as a woman, as a business owner,

Kellee Wynne: as an artist and a creative, we never want that creative light to be dimmed.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: And I think in the hustle of building a business it can. And so that is one of my real. Strong motivators for teaching a simple system inside build It remarkable because I want success, but I don't want people to believe that they have to do it all in order to be successful.

Ruth Ander: Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's one end. The other end is, I think what you mentioned was is artists being a bit afraid of making money or not thinking they should. And there is somewhere in the middle. I hope there is. I think I'm, there is somewhere

Kellee Wynne: in

Ruth Ander: the middle. There is somewhere in the middle.

You know, once you sort of got over your money, your weird money beliefs that we all have, and you are [00:59:00] managing to keep the, uh, the messages at bay, you know that you should be making more and getting bigger and there is a nice space in the middle, I think somewhere. So. I

Kellee Wynne: think so too.

Ruth Ander: Yeah.

Kellee Wynne: I mean. The better resourced we are, the better we can help others.

And I think money in the hands of good people right now is a good thing considering Absolutely. That it hasn't been so great in the hands of the not so good people. Yes. So it's our turn. Yes. It's the artists and the creators and the makers and the lovers and the caregivers that are turn now.

Ruth Ander: Yeah,

Kellee Wynne: absolutely.

This has been such a fun conversation, Ruth. It went twists and turns where I didn't even expect it to go, but. I was so grateful to you. I'm so grateful you're on the podcast and in my program and that I've gotten to know you and I'm really excited for your course to release. So

Ruth Ander: brilliant. Yeah, thanks.

Thank you for having me.

Kellee Wynne: You. Till next time.